Observations and inanities by a second-shift assistant supervisor in the Puppy-Grinding division of the Evil Atheist Conspiracy® (our motto: "Sure it's cruel, but think of the jobs!"), your host, Brent Rasmussen.
So, it turns out that the Catholic Church actually *is* susceptable to societal pressure...
...it's just the wrong kind of pressure.
In a move responding to ongoing complaints from some Catholics, it seems that Pope Benny is about to take a step back in time, and allow the more conservative groups which objected to the reforms of Vatican II to have their way. Specifically, as reported in a piece by Edward Pentin in the National Catholic Register, the Church will soon allow more use of Liturgical Latin. This, you may or may not know, is a big thing to the far-right conservatives of the Catholic religion, and is evidence of their increased power with the new pope.
Now, if guys wearing funny dresses and hats want to mutter in dead languages while praising their own particular sky daddy, that's their business, and most people here won't give a Ratzinger's Ass. But a move in this direction is one of moving towards a more 'fundamental' Catholic church, bringing them more in line philosophically (though certainly not theologically) with other fundamental religions. And it is a move further away from anything which can be characterized as reason, and thus bodes ill for us all.
Jim Downey
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Okay, have any of you
Okay, have any of you idiots actually listened to a Mass in Latin, or in any other language. Let me guess, you have never even been to a mass before in a Catholic church. Am I right? Then why get so riled up if the Catholics want to have some of their masses put back into the Latin language? It won't affect you at all.
For one, the Mass in any language is beautiful, that is if you actually go to Mass. My own church holds Mass in Spanish and sometimes I attend. I cannot understand everything because I've only taken a few years of Spanish, but I have been going to church my whole life and I understand what is happening as he speaks.
"Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom. He gives strength to the weary and increases the power of the weak. Even youths grow tired and weary, and young men stumble and fall; but those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint."
Isaiah 40:28-31
Excellent question fox.
Never listened to mass myself, being that it's not portrayed in the stuff I watch. However I do understand the appeal of stuff in a foreign language, being that most of my favorite stuff is in Japanese (with english subtitles). In this case it is notable because for a while people have been asking that the Catholic church allow priests to marry again (Priests were allowed to do so originally, I'm pretty sure the marrage ban didn't occur until after 1000 CE), that the church would support condom use in married couples who either don't want to catch each other's STDs or don't want to have more kids and that the church would allow women to be ordained. Whether one listens to mass in Latin or in English is of no concern. Personally, I love Latin mass because it tells me that my theory that Christianity was founded by Romans is right on.
I've got a question, if God cannot grow tired and weary, than why was it that he felt a need to rest for a day after creating life, the universe, and everything?
Also been there
Having had occasion as a youth to attend Latin Masses (with the priest's back to us) I can tell you what we recited, "I missed the bus, you missed the bus, we all missed the bus." Very enlightening, I must say.
Been there, done that
Having gone to a Jesuit high school for a spell (26 years ago), we had to attend mass on occasion although we were not forced to partake in it since I wasn't Catholic. This was during the period I was looking for a way out of my faith and I would bring a book to read because the masses in Latin were so horrendously boring, droning. The only thing worse, in terms of boredom in religion, is the Orthodox service...unless you're drunk and then the hypnotic chants in old Church Slavonic (yes, they still use it) can be very relaxing (as long as you never look at the priest because Orthodox priests all look as wild-eyed, batshit insane as the famous pictures of Rasputin...seriously; they're also as corrupt as any other institution in the former Soviet Union with their offering of indulgences).
In any event, if you re-read the title of the post and think about the situation in society today (where churches should be stripped of tax-exempt status and made to pay back taxes for the last hundred years, at least, of incessant political propagandizing), you'll understand that it is a dig at the hypocrisy of holy mother church who repeats regularly that they won't change their ways (allowing priests to marry, for example) due to societal pressure and cultural progress.
Further to the point, the author highlights that this is a step backwards (go find out what Vatican II did and get back to us) and an offering to the far right. Those most vocally opposed to Vatican II, to whom this offer is being made, are in line with the dominionists in our country and will NEVER be appeased by just one little step and, in fact, one little step is nothing but encouragement for them to step up their efforts since they figure they can make things change to their liking if they howl loudly enough.
"You better start giving me some inner peace before I mop the floor with you." - Homer S.
or
"Pinky, you excel at random." - the Brain
Well said, RoonDog
Yeah, I think that nails it, so I will add nothing further. Except to note that people such as our friend Kitsune seem incapable of conceiving that a decision to be a non-believer can actually come out of a churched background - and in fact, this is the most likely case for most atheists in the US, given how steeped in religion our society is. Which is to say that not only have I *attended* a Catholic Mass, I was brought up in that church pre-Vatican II, and had both my First Communion and my Confirmation. So yeah, I have been to one or two full Masses...and ya know, I decided that for all the beauty and ritual it was still a pointless exercise.
Jim Downey
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Like Science Fiction? Read my novel, Communion of Dreams, for free.
Latin Masses
Okay for one thing, I'm not your friend. I just happened to stumble upon this page and, because I enjoy discussing my faith, I decided to put my opinion down.
Another thing, I do realize that many non-believers came from a "churched background", as you say, and lost their faith throughout life's problems and toils. Many of my friends are that way and I don't pressure them to rejoin. I do invite them to my church and youth group. If they choose not to go, then it is okay with me. I think that you are mxing me up with yourself. Thinking that every Catholic hates all other people just because they are not the same religion.
You guys want to speak of Pre-VaticanII times and then complain? Oh please, get over it. My Dad and Little Grandpa lived through those times and Pre- and Post-VaticanII and they wouldn't mind having some of the masses in Latin again. Remember now, children, I said not all Masses but some. We could very easily just have another mass on Sundays for any interested peoples. Though I do believe that Vatican II did do some good, I mean I'm an altar server, and a lector and I wouldn't have been able to do these tasks in my Dad's time.
Hey Cat are you an anime fan by the way?
Yup
I'm definitely an anime fan, although I don't think I'd be classified as an anime otaku.
It's very true that not all religious people are zealots, one of the sad things about history is that the zealots are the most visible and so most often taken for the majority by outsiders.
Response
Not our friend? I missed that reference and, given the fact that you open by calling us idiots and assuming we know nothing of which we speak, I guess it is safe to agree with you that you are not our friend. All in all, that seems a very odd way of trying to spread your joy unless I missed the part in the bible that discusses trolling and righteous flame wars. Then again, god had yet to think up the PC...
As for losing faith because of "problems and toils," I think you will find many more characters who cling even harder to their faith when enduring the BS life throws at them because they are too weak to deal with it on their own a/o find a way out. Most of the atheists that I know, including myself, were not turned off of god because of life's experiences but through long, rigorous analyses of logic, religious texts, religious practices, philosophies and, yes, the ultimate pea under the pillow of Princess Creation, science. It was not that life was too hard... actually, most atheists seem to be much more engaged in the world and take great pleasure in their time here knowing it is all they will have; that is, atheists cherish more all the variety, good and bad, that life has to offer... but that god, religion, faith, the supernatural, etc., made little to no sense.
The very idea of surrender, which is a dogmatic necessity in monotheistic religions (at least), is anathema to the mind of the skeptic since we generally thrive on asking questions and seeing what we can do to find the answers (and we know they're not in Genesis)... and that never-ending search to learn more is what drives most atheists I know as opposed to any negative reaction to something else.
"You better start giving me some inner peace before I mop the floor with you." - Homer S.
or
"Pinky, you excel at random." - the Brain
people such as our friend
people such as our friend Kitsune seem incapable of conceiving that a decision to be a non-believer can actually come out of a churched background
Theres the reference.
I never said that I could spread joy by discussing my faith. I do believe that I replied that I enjoyed discussing my faith. Spreading joy is a good thing, but some people are too stubborn to open up to the joy that others feel as a response to their own faith. If we met I wonder if we could be friends, or not.
We'll probably have to agree to disagree because yes, I did call you idiots when I first answered to this blog, or whatever it is, but I was merely upset. I apologize. I would like to continue to blog on this site as the only religious person because I find it very amusing. It's like the highlight of my morning now. ^_^. I get on here, read your degrading comments then I write back. Ooo, fun.
Just a question to anyone, actually. I know that you guys are atheists but is it just the Catholic church that you had a problem with? Did you try other religions before you gave up your faith?
Given that...
...you use sarcasm, I thought you would recognize it in this quote, Kitsune:
And as for atheists coming out of different religious backgrounds, just go wade into the deep pool at Fundamentalists Anonymous. Unless you're afraid to swim, that is.
Jim Downey
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Like Science Fiction? Read my novel, Communion of Dreams, for free.
Oooo. He starts to get
Oooo. He starts to get vicious. Again, amusing. I was wondering, by the way, what religions you guys in this discussion had attempted.
Though I do think that I'll go to Fundamentalists Anonymous anyway. Might be fun there as well.
Vicious?
Vicious? Are you serious? Huh. Your understanding of what is vicious and what is not vicious must completely different than mine. If by "vicious" you mean "slightly sarcastic", then I guess Jim was just a raving, angry insane lunatic when he replied to you in such a -- vicious manner.
Please. Grow some stones already and quit playing the world-weary, condescending, religious believer, taking on all the vicious atheist monsters in their own lair with good humor and amusement. It gets real old after a few comments.
No, I'm completely serious. Shut the fuck up with the attitude already.
If you want to discuss things in a civil and intelligent manner, then by all means, knock yourself out.
If you want to be a troll, do it somewhere else. It is a simple as that.
Now, to answer your question, I was "born into" the Mormon faith, then left and became a born-again Christian who attended a Nazarene congregation. I was intensely religious for the first 16 years of my life, then gradually fell out of the faith as I read more and understood more about self-deception and the motivations behind deceiving yourself in the face of all contradictory evidence, or lack of evidence altogether. Using the scientific method I determined that there was no evidence that supported the conclusion "god exists". My god-belief disappeared and I became an atheist - that is, one in which god-belief is absent.
Now you. What evidence do you have that a god exists? Furthermore, what evidence have you accepted in your own head that convinced you that not only did this god exist, but that it was a particular deity named "God", and not just any "God", but the specific "God" of the Catholic faith, and the exact, specific, individual flavor of Catholic faith that you happen to practice?
The fact that a god may exist somewhere in the universe is something I can see as being a reasonable proposition. If any any time there is evidence which supports this, I will have to become a deist. Maybe later, if more evidence is presented, I will modify my position to that of "theist". But until that evidence is shown, then god-belief is still absent within me, making me an atheist.
But your particular god existing just for you and your brothers and sisters who share your one, narrow, peculiar faith tradition?
How lucky are YOU? I mean, wow! What are the odds? The rest of us are just shit out of luck on this whole "god" deal, because Kitsune and his sect have the TRUTH.
Good for you, man. I mean, really. I hope it makes you sleep well at night.
Personally, I think it's all bullshit on your part, but that's just vicious old me.
Damn it Brent
You accuse me of scaring off the christians. :)
I love this place.
Yeah, he's off his meds.
I swear, we gotta get Brent to take his meds - all this standing up for himself like he was a real person has just gotta stop. He's forgotten his place, damn it!
Jim Downey
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Like Science Fiction? Read my novel, Communion of Dreams, for free.
Well
Shut up you ignorant idiots. You don't know anything!
I'll bet the Bible burns you when you touch it and baby Jesus weeps every time you cross the threshold of a church!
latin mess
Not to mention that latin is the language of science and the intelectuals. Wait, now I'm confused.
One problem with using a language for religion that isn't the native language of the reason is that even more than usual believers must rely on the priests to tell them what the thing says. This is actually a problem with Islam as the Arabic that is used in their holy books is different than modern Arabic (or at least that's what I've heard), leading to the potential that the worshipers cannot second-guess their religious leaders.
It's all about power.
The history of Christianity for a long time was simply the history of the Catholic Church (well, and the Orthodox Church). And in the Catholic Church it was all about power - whether to even allow the Bible to be printed in the vernacular was a HUGE issue, since it was seen as giving more power to the sheep, er, I mean, people.
So yeah, using church Latin was decidedly a means to an end. The reforms of Vatican II were about decentralization as a strategy for preserving the church's power as well, in the face of growing secularization in Europe and America (well, this was the 1960s). But with the rise of the charismatics, I think the Catholic heirarchy has decided that they can play that game as well as anyone (and have been doing so in the Third World), and are reverting to their old ways.
Jim Downey
"Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering."
- R. Buckminster Fuller
Latin Mass
Latin isn't the language Jesus spoke. It's the language his executioners, the Romans spoke. They supposedly killed him for sedition.
Latin was the language the Catholics used when they were the official State Religion of Rome, and they had lots of power and military might and didn't tolerate sedition..wait, I'm confused.
Griff
Not even sure about that
While the language of Rome and its military was Latin, didn't they actually defer to locals the business of languages and, this being the Levant around 2000 years ago, that would mean some semitic tongue prevalent in the day?
"You better start giving me some inner peace before I mop the floor with you." - Homer S.
or
"Pinky, you excel at random." - the Brain