"Are you *sure*?"

Jim Downey's picture

A friend sent me a link to this CBS News item this morning:

Atheists Make A Case Against God

Except that the article really isn't about that. It's more about where atheism fits in within our society, as seen through the vehicle of former Saturday Night Live actress Julia Sweeney, who discusses her own journey away from belief, and how it was received by her family:

Even more confusing for Sweeney personally was religion. She comes from a large Irish-Catholic family. But in her 30s, Sweeney says she began a spiritual quest. It led her away from any notion of God — a conversion she turned into a monologue, soon to be released as a film called "Letting Go of God."

But of course, many people would disagree with Sweeney, especially her mother, Geri. She said it was a great shock that her daughter decided that there wasn't enough evidence for her to believe in God.

"I just couldn't believe that she had gotten to that place. I'm Catholic. I intend to continue to be Catholic," Geri Sweeney said. "I think the Catholic Church is a wonderful place."

It's a long piece, but here is the bit I was intrigued by:

Julia Sweeney says she simply cannot believe in God because of a lack of evidence, but Prothero (Chair of the religious studies department at Boston University, and author of the recent book "Religious Literacy") says that is where faith comes in.

"I have no trouble saying that, you know, we can't prove the existence of God," he said. "I think most Americans feel the same way."

Julia's mother Geri says she was taught in second grade that there was no proof that God exists.

"It doesn't matter a bit to me," she said. "I have a very personal relationship with my God and I don't need any proof. I'm not searching for proof — and she is."

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

I was still trying to get to the bottom of my first cup of coffee this morning, when my MIL called for the third time since I had come downstairs about thirty minutes previously.

I entered the dark bedroom (it was barely 7 AM), went over to her bed. I leaned over the railing. "What do you need, MIL?"

"Are we there yet?"

"Where?"

"Boonville." (A nearby town, and where she grew up.)

"We're in Columbia."

"Oh." Pause. "Well, how long will the train take to get to Boonville?"

"Train?"

"Yeah, we're on a train."

"Um, no. We're in your home." (The home where she's lived for 53 years.)

"Oh, no, we're on a train." She looked around the ample bedroom, complete with bookshelves, a desk, dressers, et cetera. "This is a train."

"Um, no, this is your bedroom. In your home. In Columbia."

"Are you sure?"

"Yup."

"How are you sure?"

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

I was somewhat dismayed last night when I checked in to UTI and saw the Colonel's responses to Brent, Thameron, et al. Because what I saw was not a rational "I know there's no proof of God, but my faith helps me believe", and was instead something akin to the outright disconnect I get when dealing with my MIL. It's "Through the Looking Glass" time, where the usual words and understanding that we have of the world around us is no longer in any way related to reality.

Now, the Colonel is clearly a smart guy, with a decent education and the ability to discuss things intelligently. And yet, when pushed, we see once again a believer who is capable of constructing a reality in which his personal saviour is triumphant over the "also rans" of science and other religions.

And that frightens me.

Oh, not so much that mankind is still stuck in magical thinking. I knew that. Have known it for many, many years. But rather that even the intelligent and well educated are capable of warping knowledge to fit their own particular religious perspective.

I will admit to being an elitist. I look at intelligence and education as our only possible hope of progress as a species. I see it as an antidote to ignorance, superstition, living in a fantasy where it is OK for one religious group to hate and kill another.

But when I witness the willing suspension of critical thinking - worse, the twisting of critical thinking to support irrationality - I feel like I am looking into a future in which the whole human race slides into an Alzheimer's-like dementia, unable to determine where we are, let alone where we're going.

Jim Downey

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Cat's picture

learning

I will admit to being an elitist. I look at intelligence and education as our only possible hope of progress as a species. I see it as an antidote to ignorance, superstition, living in a fantasy where it is OK for one religious group to hate and kill another.

And replace the religious reasons for killing each other for a different set of random reasons for killing each other which somehow always come down to "it's us or them, we'd better make sure it's them." You're smart enough to figure this out but I'll say it again, war isn't caused by religion. The target is determined by religion, but the root cause of the war is a resource deficit and/or the desire to own something that doesn't belong to you. Eliminating religion only eliminates one of the sets of stupid things to fight over that humans routinely use to shelter themselves from why they're really fighting. After all, what sounds more civilized/less animal-like, "we're killing them because we want their oil-rich land" or "we're killing them in an attempt to bring enlightenment to the savages" or even "we're killing them to avenge the death of some random person who died centuries/millennia ago". One of those excuses is true, the others are just a pretty lie that helps people feel that they're really being the kind of unselfish, upstanding saints that they and/or society want themselves to be.

But when I witness the willing suspension of critical thinking - worse, the twisting of critical thinking to support irrationality - I feel like I am looking into a future in which the whole human race slides into an Alzheimer's-like dementia, unable to determine where we are, let alone where we're going.

Although to be fair it's not like the human race slides into an Alzheimer's-like dementia, that would imply they left it in the first place. The sad truth is that people who rely only on critical thinking to solve their problems are the aberration, not the norm. Now maybe that is just because they're badly educated, maybe if the schooling system was changed to include science from a young age, maybe if natural history were emphasized more than human history in schools there would be a difference. As it is you get human history courses every year of primary school, but you only get one (at most) natural history course. Now I know people keep arguing that "those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it" and I've got to wonder "why does that matter? even if someone takes a history class there's no guaranty that they'll get what's important important from the history class (namely the big picture, the whys, the basics of what happened) not the unimportant things (individual names, dates and places) that are often emphasized in history.

god loves you's picture

Killing for religion

In my opinion people don't realy kill or go to war over religion. People go to war over greed, control and power. Religion is just the propaganda that the corrupt clergy use to sucker the dumb masses into going along with the war so that the clergy can get their share of the power.

It's not really about the religion. In the absence of religion the power brokers will just come up with the next best justification for killing people.

Wars arn't really fought over religion. They may be fought with religion.

God is love
God loves you
Why not to use the bible as toilet paper

god loves you's picture

Fighting with science

We also fight wars with science. You could say that science is evil because it created atomic bombs. It's harder to twist science into a pretext for war. We have however twisted science into a justification for slavery. They used to justify slavery based on questionable findings that other races had diminished cranial capacity.

God is love
God loves you
Why not to use the bible as toilet paper

SteveC's picture

Definition of faith

Maybe you guys could chime in on this thread on iidb.org where the religious contend, inexplicably, that faith does not mean believing in something to a degree of certainty unwarranted by the available evidence, and that only atheists think the word faith means that. They are either being dishonest or incredibly unobservant. Every time you back one of these dipshits in to a corner where there's no evidence, they play the faith card, "Well, it's a matter of faith, I just believe it, etc."

http://iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=218033

The user "seebs" especially should know better, he's been on there since 2002, and was once a moderator on that board. Bunch of equivocating dishonest squirmy little worms.

Jim Downey's picture

And a follow-up...

After my MIL got up from her nap this afternoon, had a snack, and went in to sit in the front room, we had a storm roll through. Nothing serious, but there was a bit of lightning and thunder. I went to check on her, and it was clear that she was anxious about something. I asked her if she was worried.

"I'm worried about the people."

"Which people?"

"The people who I was talking with. Before."

"Maybe that was a dream, MIL. You've been here all day."

"Oh, no, I was up on a hill. Talking with people. They told me to come back here."

(We live on the highest hill around, and she'd been no where.) "Well, maybe that was in your dream."

"No, it was at a house, up on a hill over there," She gestured randomly. "Will you take me up there? I want to make sure the people are OK."

"I'm sure they're fine."

"But you have to take me to go see."

And thereafter followed 40 minutes of discussion about not needing to take her 'over there' in the car so she could check to make sure the people of her dream were OK.

* * * * * * * * * * *

And therein lies the danger of this - those who have slipped off into dementia are demanding that we all go along for the ride, and that we take them to their imaginary places to see imaginary people and do imaginary things. Why? Because they're "sure".

Jim Downey

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Like Science Fiction? Read my novel, Communion of Dreams, for free.

god loves you's picture

Following people in dementia

This world is a form of virtual reality. You have been deluded by your own illusion. Just because you are sure that this world has a real existance despite it being an illusion in your mind. Why should I treat this world and anything more than a hallucination that you can't see through?

God is love
God loves you
Why not to use the bible as toilet paper

The Colonel's picture

Which train are you on?

Ah, Jim. You've precisely described the frustration I endure with you all. You're in a house and not only do you not know it, your house came to be there without a builder.

-Col.

god loves you's picture

Who built the house

Ah, Jim. You've precisely described the frustration I endure with you all. You're in a house and not only do you not know it, your house came to be there without a builder.

-Col.

Good one.

Images of man alan watts
Heres a great video I found mixing a talk by alan watts with some disney footage. Alan talks about atheism versus christianity and the world. It's pretty good. He talks about how the atheistic view of an absolute constructed world is very similair to the christian view of a world created by god only the atheists don't know how their world original came to be.

God is love
God loves you
Why not to use the bible as toilet paper

god loves you's picture

Great metaphor

Theirs more to life than meets the eye.

What a great metaphor.

God is love
God loves you
Why not to use the bible as toilet paper

god loves you's picture

Life is just a dream

Row row row your boat gently down the stream. Merrily merrily merrily merrily LIFE IS BUT A DREAM.

God is love
God loves you
Why not to use the bible as toilet paper

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