Observations and inanities by a second-shift assistant supervisor in the Puppy-Grinding division of the Evil Atheist Conspiracy® (our motto: "Sure it's cruel, but think of the jobs!"), your host, Brent Rasmussen.
brain function of liberals, conservatives differs
Here is a very interesting article about how the conservative and liberal brains function differently from one another. If I had to guess, you'd see a similar set of results if you compared the brain function of a fundy christian vs. an atheist (or at least vs an "enlightened atheist" as I believe Hank called it.)
Hat tip to SEB
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John Dean's "Conservatives Without Conscience"
Here is a 10 minute interview of John Dean by Keith Olberman from a little over a year ago discussing his book "Conservatives Without Conscience". John Dean is a former White House Council under President Richard Nixon.
I agree with Rick's thesis. From my observations of conservatives, extreme loyalty is a fundamental part of their political outlook. Even the most blatant acts of corruption and cronyism are ignored because of their "faith" in the GOP. Facts can be completely ignored. For example, conservatives actually can deny that global climate change is destroying our planet because evil liberals are concerned about it. I see the same blind loyalty with extremist right wingers as with religious followers. It takes an willfull suspension of disbelief for a person to beilieve in gawd.
As if the 10 minute interview weren't long enough, here is some more homework. Dailykos has a fairly long diary called "23% of us are fucked" about Dean's book and Authoritarianism that is well worth a read if you have time.
Orcinus
One of my favorite (if you mean "scary as shit") sites on this topic is Orcinus. Lots of good information on how the authoritarian movement is playing out here in the US.
Jim Downey
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Like Science Fiction? Read my novel, Communion of Dreams, for free.
Thanks for that link...
... Jim. A friend of mine had also sent me there a while back, but I forgot all about it. I just skimmed the Ted Olsen article and it looks outstanding. I have it bookmarked now so I won't forget to go back and look in depth when I have more time.
Dirk
Further studies in the differences
I hope everyone will take the time to download and read the book THE AUTHORITARIANS by Bob Altemeyer. It can be found at:
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
It has already explored the link between conservative mindsets and liberal mindsets. In short, through actual studies, NOT opinions, he has found conservative followers:
This work can shed some important light on the differences.
He also ran a simulation where liberals and conservatives were allowed to run the world on two different nights. The liberals ended up with a relatively peaceful society in large part because they de-militarized in order to provide basic necessities for their populations.
The conservatives started a nuclear war killing everyone on the planet.
Could it be...
...that this kind of "study" tells us more about the researcher than the research? You can clearly see the guy's thumb in the photo....
I can just see all the brownshirts coming now to begin the re-education camps: "Anyone that doesn't think like leftists should die." More sober minds would have thought we'd learned our lesson 60 years ago on this kind of thing.
-Col.
You'll have to read it to find out
Dear Colonel,
The reason I posted this link is because the guy has self surveys from these people to back up his claims. He says in his forward he does not consider himself a left-winger but rather a moderate. He never identifies any political affiliation. He also takes pains to point out there ARE left wing authoritarians such as those in the former communist Russia who were willing to follow Stalin although their politics are to the left. He also points out people can change their attitudes and hostilities somewhat especially if exposed to "out-groups". Those authoritarians who've attended college (not the insular bible colleges) saw their Authoritarian scores drop as did those fundamentalists who took the time to get to know homosexuals.
He also reminds us of the Milgram Obedience Experiments and the great conclusions from them. 1) Almost everyone (myself included) can find themselves going along with the crowd when in a situation of peer pressure and perceived authority; and 2) that people are more likely to resist authority when they see a peer resist it. Therefore, it's important while we have liberties to speak out in defense of them.
His conclusions seems to be to encourage people to think for themselves and stop swallowing whole what is fed them from the politcal right, left, and pulpit whether it be Christian, Muslim, or Jew.
Thanks, Scott
I can appreciate much of what you're saying. I likely wouldn't have responded in the same way to the data from the research if it alone had been proffered. It was his "simulation" that, for me, betrayed an observable bias.
I can just imagine the furor that would have been raised by the left if there was a study with a follow-up "simulation" which indicated that, say, if homosexuals were in power, overnight we would be in irreparable threat to rampant AIDS.
As for the data, I enjoy very much findings on left/right hemispheres of brain study. There are clear and, sometimes, downright comical differences between individuals. But when nuclear holocaust overnight is prophesied, methinks he doth protest too much.
-Col.
Deranged Colonel Syndrome
Sure Colonel, modern skeptics, freethinkers and atheists are just like Nazi Brownshirts on the Night of the Long Knives. Have you ever heard of Godwin's Law? You are becoming more troll-like every day. Previously, I would have expected more of you and been dissappointed in a comment like this, but lately you seem to have come unhinged. Is there something bad happening in your life that makes you want to lash out at others in this way?
Dirk
Bear in mind
That the col does not inhabit the same world that you and I do and thus his views may seem somewhat skewed. His world has demons and they can play hell with the reasoning faculties. Demons could easily take over all the liberal minds and bring about this grim distopia. On the other hand it would be somewhat pointless since killing Christians and sending their immortal souls off to be with their loving god, before they slip and do some sinning (and thus miss the soul train), for all eternity is (by their logic) the best thing that you could do for them.
Join in
Thameron, you're welcome to come join the real world at any time.
-Col.
Not lashing, just observant
Dirk, I have said the same kind of thing to a conservative!
The point is not so much the worldview per se, but thinking that certain biological "kinds" of people are to be feared (which was the potential essence of "liberals were at peace while conservatives killed each other") in the original article.
Try to get outside of your box for just a minute. What if some whackjob from some institution or university wrote an article stating that liberals biologically tend toward communism, and that therefore they are a clear and present national security risk? Wouldn't you think that just a bit draconian?!?!? And, yes, this is essentially what happened in the 1930's and 40's Germany. One or more groups was demonized, supposedly on scientific grounds, and then along came the ovens.
As I said, I made the same argument to a conservative while in graduate school. It is the methodology and the smuggled biases that ought to concern us with various studies like this. Anyone with some formal education understands on its face that there are potentially grave pitfalls to such sweeping statements as "one group just killed all the others in our study".
As for skeptics here at UTI...maybe. Freethinking? In all honesty I am skeptical about that. Critical interaction here along the accepted lines of formal convention doesn't happen as a matter of course as much as I would think it should if there were freethinking. Often, it's just a name-calling one-up-man-ship, not thoughtful reflection. To me, a free thinker doesn't do that.
-Col.
Lashing Out
I don't care. I watch D's and R's call each other names all day. Some shit just isn't funny. The holocaust was an example of just how evil and cruel humans can be to each other. Comparing liberals to Nazi's is just plain dumb. There are NO comparisons to Nazi's and making petty comparisons cheapens and diludes the lessons of history. I don't care if you heard some lib say it about you, it doesn't excuse your pettiness.
I didn't read the whole book Scott was referring to, but I can say, without apology, that liberals and conservatives do have different mindsets. Wow! How revolutionary! Was the author saying that all conservatives are bad and want to blow up the world, I don't think so. We might make fun a little, but I am sure no one here at UTI thinks all conservatives are evil. I think you know that, but chose to make your Nazi comment anyway.
Actually, it did happen here. It happened in the 1950's and the wackjob's name was Joseph McCarthy. McCarthy conducted witchhunt's for years. Thankfully, his popularity faded and he was eventually censured by the Senate and became a laughing stock. However, your analogy that we are demonizing conservatives just like the Nazi's demonized Jews is ludicrous. These two things are not even in the same ball park. Maybe this make sense to you, but I can't follow your twisted logic and sick analogies.
"Potentially grave pitfalls?" Dude, it was just a study. Easy now. Go ahead and tear down the study in a logical, well thought out manner if it suits you, but lay off the Nazi comparisons.
Nice. From my point of view, modern science is the only thing you are skeptical about. Again I will ask, what are you doing here if we are so far beneath you?
And stop whining about the name calling. Oh boo-hoo someone called you a kook, insane or a crackpot. Those names are hardly what I would call cruel, vulgar or obscene. Gimme a break. What do you really expect when you tell people you personally have witnessed miracles and believe in demons? Come on. If I suddenly told my friends or family that I had been abducted by aliens they would laugh hysterically at me and call me much worse names. You need thicker skin. Haven't you ever been around a group of guys bustin' on each other? I thought you said you played football and were in the military?
The original topic was the difference between conservatives and liberals. As you can see up and down this thread, there are many examples of conservatives being drawn to Authoritarian figures. If you disagree, fine. Tell me why and don't give me a bunch of reasons why libs are like Nazis. Another observation I can make about conservatives would be a lack of a sense of humor. Why are almost all comedians on the liberal side? And I would also say conservatives tend to be more racist, sexist and homophobic. Yes, these are stereotypes. Are there exceptions? Sure. Does it make me a Nazi for pointing out these stereotypes? Maybe to you it does.
Dirk
The original post
...first brought up the Nazis, Dirk, not me. Read it again. You totally missed this in your first post back to me with your jab about Godwin's Law! Read the quote in Scott's original post.
Nonetheless, anytime a group tries to set up another group as somehow biologically inferior then, yes, that is very precisely what the Nazis did. You may not like it, but the history is inescapable. As for name calling, I'm not concerned about a little funning, but I am concerned about both your epistemology and your methodology. It is simply petitio principii to assume a position and then simply refuse all evidence against without fair hearing a priori. This is what you do with anything you regard as not "science, science" or anything you personally haven't seen or experienced, such as a miracle. It wouldn’t matter to you how many people witnessed something; to you it couldn’t happen, therefore, no matter what, it didn’t happen. What a happy method!
Dirk, you sound so much like Dawkins, you must have read him. The man is a laughing stock among his peers. As I mentioned in another post, an Oxford atheist told another Oxford PhD, "Please don't judge us by this drivel." The man is an embarrassment.
You may simply pick a position, say it is correct no matter all other evidence, and damn anyone who believes otherwise. You may do it. But you may not do it and simultaneously be respected as intellectually honest by those used to the normal conventions of academic debate.
-Col
Unless, of course...
Unless, of course, they took you seriously and started proceedings to get you some mental health help for not having a societally-sanctioned belief in Big Magic JuJu Guy.
Jim Downey
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Like Science Fiction? Read my novel, Communion of Dreams, for free.
Exactly
Which is exactly what happened in the former Soviet gulags to Christians for not swallowing the magic juju cosmos that just appears on its own out of pixie dust or simply always was, damn the overwhelming evidence for finitude. The history of the twentieth century nations is one where atheists started the proceedings, Jim, and I think you're well-studied enough to know that. How often do you see in posts here that the people who disagree with you are "crazy" or "kooks" or actually "insane" as I have been pronounced?
You don't read these kinds of things about atheists in even the most tightly wrapped Christian sites on the web. It's a one-way street.
-Col.
How would it compare
...with enlightened Christians and fundy atheists?
If the left hemisphere is logic and mathematics and the right hemisphere is language and esthetics, then could it be that logic is ugly and math inexplicable?
-Col.
Too funny! "with enlightened
Too funny!
"with enlightened Christians and fundy atheists"
HAHAHAHAHA!
Reality TV
...has shown that actualities are often more intriguing than make-believe. Evidently things are funnier when rooted in the real world rather than imagination as well.
-Col.
...but I did not mean to say
...but I did not mean to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.
-- John Stuart Mill (Public and Parliamentary Speeches, 31 May 1866, pp. 85-86.)
I realize this is quote-mining (definitely out of context)(he was talking about the British Conservative Party not the more general group) but I have to admit that it rings pretty true for me.
Kind of explains a few things
Such as, why universities are largely liberal. They are comprised of individuals who's job it is to have a flexible mind set and be open to new ideas/research. I would imagine a consevative-minded person wouldn't be attracted to a postition where they had to continually assimilate new ideas.
Bah!
That ol' liberal v. conservative dichotomy again? Bah! When they figure out the difference between anarcho-libertarian-atheists like me and everyone else, then I'll be interested. ;)
Jim Downey
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Like Science Fiction? Read my novel, Communion of Dreams, for free.
The difference
Jim, it's the same thing. You're just further along the path of figuring things out, of collating and understanding them, than the average person (who would be called "liberal").
To put it another way
You're just more chaotic Jim.
I had wondered before whether the chaotic/lawful alignment descriptors of D&D could be applied to the liberal/conservative alignment descriptors of real life (or "meatspace" as some people call it). And it looks like, ya, it a general way Liberals could be described as Chaotic and conservatives Lawful (for those that never played D&D neither is inherently good or evil, that's what the Good-Evil alignment scale is for).
"If there is evil in this world, it lurks within the hearts of men" ~Edward D. Morrison, Tales of Phantasia
Chaotic/Damned Nice?
You know, that makes a fair amount of sense, Cat. Not sure whether I could really be described as either Good or Evil, though...perhaps just Damned Nice. Catches both the atheism and my general attitude towards people...;)
Jim Downey
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Like Science Fiction? Read my novel, Communion of Dreams, for free.