Moment Of (*wink wink, nod nod, say no more*) Silence

I think the moment of silence is a good idea. Whatever the motivation of those who are pushing for it, it allows kids to take a minute out of their busy school day to think, and I feel like that's a good idea. Whether the children are using that silence to reflect on their faith or using it to go over what tests they have to take that day, it may be the only quiet time they have all day. We had a moment of silence when I was in junior high and I always used it to go over what homework was due that day. I don't think it's harmful in any way, and the time it takes away from teaching is negligible.

how exactly does this hurt us? if the kid doesn't want to pray the school isn't forcing them to pray, the school isn't leading a prayer, if you're an athiest you don't have to pray, if you're a muslim, you don't have to pray to the christian god, we had a moment of silence every day at my high school, and I sat and did my homework while the moment of silence was going on. pretty much every religion prays in silence, and if you're an athiest, you can stand and think for a minute or two, it's not a big deal.

i remember back shortly after 9/11 my school tried to enforce the pledge, and moments of silence. i refused to do either. i do NOT pledge allegiance to this country, and would not say it in school. i got a lot of crap from other students for it, and even a teacher or two, but i am agnostic (extreme disbeliever in god, but i cant say for certain so i do not claim athiesm). i would simply sit at my desk and doodle or whatever while everyone did their stuff.

the moments of silence however, i would not observe either, because i dont believe i should give any of my time to people who willingly died for a country that they did not make better in any way. for the revolution, war of 1812, ww2 MAYBE, for some of them. but a lot of them were just peons who followed orders because they were too callow to stand up for their actual beliefs. i believe in strength of mind and will, and i will not bow my head for those that dont have it.

i am currently in college, and it enfuriates me whenever i see the "Campus Crusade for Christ" meetings. i personally dont think religion should even been allowed inside government buildings at all, or out in public. keep it in your homes and churches, and out of my life.

Yes, I completely agree that this is a problem. I am a junior in high school and attend school in the great (*tolerant*) state of Texas. I am also an outspoken atheist. But, every morning, during second period, we recite the United States pledge, the Texas pledge, and have a "Moment of Silence". Now, the US pledge I do recite, because I am proud to be an American (corny, I know), but I leave out the "One nation under God" line because it was not originally part of the pledge and I am an atheist. Now, the Texas pledge, I used to recite, but it was recently "revised" and mentions "God" 3 times. Now, the big 'un: The Moment of Silence. This, I do take part in, and gladly. I close my eyes, look forward, and think about why I am an atheist. The best reason I have come up is: I THINK! Yes, I think, therefore I am.

P.S. Bitchin' article.

Is the "moment of silence" you're referring to occurring on a regular basis (daily) or on specific days (i.e. Veteran's Day).

If it's the former than I have nothing to say because you are completely justified in your objection.

If, however, you're referring to the latter as being a sneaky way to bring prayer into schools then you are just pathetic. A moment of silence on a day of remembrance is meant to show respect to those that have died. In the case of Veteran's day, all those that died fighting for your country (despite some of the wars being completely unfounded/illegal). Yes, forced prayer should not be permitted in public schools, but respect for the fallen should be enforced.

I really hope this article is about the former.

It's an obvious attempt at bringing prayer to school. It's amazing that the people who are pushing for this are using deceptive tactics. They're basically emulating the behavior of the serpent in the Bible, hiding the nature of their true goal. Some Christians indeed...

Don't believe the founding fathers wanted a Christian nation:

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."
--Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, 1758

"Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects."
--James Madison, letter to William Bradford, January 1774

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded prospect."
--James Madison, letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774
". . . no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."
—Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."
--Thomas Jefferson, letter, 1787

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see, but I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity, though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequences, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and observed, especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."
--Benjamin Franklin, letter to Ezra Stiles, March 9, 1790

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."
--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind."
--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794

"The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?"
--John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
--Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
--Thomas Jefferson, letter to Alexander von Humboldt, 1813

"Man is fed with fables through life, and leaves it in the belief he knows something of what has been passing, when in truth he has known nothing but what has passed under his own eye." —Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Cooper, 1823

...why this is needed at a school. If a "moment of silent reflection" is that important to a child's parents, then they should get up 5 minutes early and gather their family together in their home for a "moment of silent reflection." This bullshit has no place in a publicly funded school system. Children should be educated, not indoctrinated, in school. If this was shown to drastically improve the quality of education in this country, I would support it wholeheartedly, but it just creates a time-consuming distraction. My suggestion to the rabid fundamentalists who have a problem with schools who don't sponsor a "moment of silent reflection" is to home-school your kids. That way, there will always be plenty of adults staffing fast-food restaurants in America.
I have already resigned myself to the fact that my tax dollars are squandered on ridiculous things, but this is just rubbing my nose in it. This is a moral issue, not political one, and I despise any effort of the government in this country to legislate morality.

And stop with the Orwellian Doublespeak and call it what it is: prayer. Anything else is just fundamentally dishonest (pun intended).

Brent, all due respect, I think you have to agree that you are attempting to distort the truth. If you go all the way back to even when Jefferson answered in a private letter to the Danbury Baptist Church, that Jefferson did not state that there should be no presence of religion in the public, for he himself was religious and favored those other of many denominations. In fact, Jefferson's "erect a wall of separation" was to inform the Danbury Baptist church that it would be erroneous to declare a national denomination. This is entirely different than what the argument has become.

Another point in case was that during the founding of this country, and for many years beyond, the founders thought it right that it's better to allow people of faith to express themselves freely in both the public office and privately, and to refrain from a religious test for or without for the positions of office. To ban the free expression of speech and faith was the very thing that the country of England was doing to their own congregations and subjects, and America's idealism was to be clear from that type of religious suppression or oppression. It is a greater constitutional crisis to ban prayer from schools and the public, than to allow them as voluntary participation. Likewise for the positions of office or civil service.

The founders had far more time and experience to reason this out, and I trust their efforts more than those of anti-religious indoctrinations by those that simply are offended by mere presence that is nothing like "mandating", which in itself is the same result when you mandate that no religious acknowledgment is legal in the presence of of public occupations.
Tolerance is the acceptance of a minor change or differences, but it is not the conversion to the differance. Otherwise, it's no longer "tolerance". In the Christian faith, tolerance of all people of all pursuastions was key, for in Christ's teachings, no one could be forced to faith. They must come freely - of their own free will after considering the costs.

I will grant at this point that there was discourse on a particular subject of religion that was not favored, and that was the apparent corruption of the leaderships of the religions - for they were as those in politics, and when they became corrupt, it tainted the very purpose of the charitable nature of religions.

So, shall the children be told "no! you shall not pray in the public places", while we try to call that "American"? No one is forced to comply, and it is not the intent of the doctrine to demand it. Nor is it denomination specific! However, it is force and control to deny a person to determine for themselves on the matters that make or break the reasons to consider morality and decency. To tell a child that they cannot pray is unconstitutional. There is no statement of "separation of church and state in the constitution. But there is a provision that says "there shall be no religious test for the oath of office", as well as "congress shall make NO laws respecting the establishment OR PROHIBITTING the free exercise thereof.

The point of the matter is, the government has passed a law that says students should be quiet for 10 seconds every morning before class begins... Time and money were spent in passing this mandated silence... And I'll have to agree with Sarah Clark on this one, it is a waste of tax dollars. Our government is pissing away my money to accomplish this when there are clearly bigger problems in the U.S.

Yes, it is a small amount of time... But we all know it really isn't about the time, don't we? It's the concept of people being told what to do for stupid reasons. I find it unsettling that the state thinks it has the authority to make kids be silent for 10 seconds every morning, and so should you. The state should realize the connotative meaning of a "moment of silence" translates to religious prayer.

I'm not against religion, but I don't think it belongs in our education system. And what are kids supposed to reflect upon anyway during these 10 seconds? Are they supposed to "mourn" the sacrifices of others upon their behalf and be thankful for what they have? 10 seconds is supposed to do that justice? Right-wing bible thumpers better rethink their decision, becasue this 10 second silence, is a waste.

Just so you all know, there is nothing in the constitution, bill of rights, or any other such document that states that there must be a "separation of church and state".
Don't get me wrong, I'm not for or against this, but people's ignorance on this subject is infuriating. People are so busy looking for something to get upset about that they put words in our founding fathers' mouths.
Another thing, all of these adults are getting upset, but how many STUDENTS really even care? I'm a senior in high school, and we have the moment of silence, but its no big deal. When a STUDENT who is FORCED to participate in the moment of silence, AFTER he/she has said they don't want to, it's against their beliefs, THEN AND ONLY THEN should something like this get so much attention.

To sum it all up, from the 1st Amendment to the constitution, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Is the government forcing a religion on these students? No.
Have they violated the constitution? NO.
Should we really be getting so upset about this unless a student is forced to participate in a moment of silence,AGAINST THEIR RELIGION? NO!

Besides, since when was it wrong for teachers to make their students be silent for a few minutes?

Do schools really expect students to actually "reflect" during this bullshit mandated silence? The teachers don't expect us to conform to this senseless waste of precious class time. During our 10 second moment of silence, we all talk, laugh, study, or do homework... It's not that we're stupid; we're all in a gifted academy, it's just that everyone knows its BS. The best part is, the teachers know it too. My teacher doesn't force us to stand during the pledge or partake in a moment of silence...

Perhaps it is because I am an atheist, but the truth is, even the devout Christian "Jesus-freaks" in my class choose to not participate in this daily 10 seconds of time, where my parents' tax dollars are being put towards in-school reflection. I'm not sure what Christians, yes, I said, "Christians," are trying to accomplish by shrouding this obvious moment of prayer with the euphemistic label of, "reflection" other than a blatant slap in the face to separation of church and state. This is the 21st Century, and it is clear that Christians are growing fearful of losing control over the entitlement generation, so they've decided to slap the handcuffs on all students with a pathetic "moment of reflection" that in reality, only serves to increase the desire to rebel against conformity.

You're seriously upset about a minute or less of enforced silence? Don't tell me it's about principles. There are no principles behind shutting up for 10 seconds.

A moment of silence allows those who wish to pray to do so. Those who don't pray can either keep quiet out of respect for those around them, or because they actually want to reflect on whatever event the silence is being held for. Nobody is standing up front preaching the virtues of Jesus or Moses or Mohammad or the Flying Spaghetti Monster or insert-religious-figure-here.

Separation of church and state does not mean banning all public expression of religion. It is reasoning like yours that led to France banning Muslim women from wearing their hijabs in schools.

I understand that it's most likely not the actual act of enforcing silence you are upset about. Taking offense at a study hall supervisor who chose to have a "silent work time" would be absurd. So what is the difference? That it is not explicitly a work time, and in this day and age there is no longer a place for personal reflection? Or is it that some children may use this time to talk to their gods? Or even that the schools *gasp* know this, and chose to accommodate the needs of the religious portion of their student body, while at the same time providing the secular portion with peace, quiet, and a place to think.

Which, I hope you will agree, is something that all children should have.

Honestly, I'm an atheist and have been since 6th fucking grade, but you don't hear me bitching about this stuff.

At the schools I've gone to in my life, they've never forced anybody to "pray" or "reflect" on anything. Most of the kids didn't do so anyway, we were all too busy being fucking kids.

Seriously, loud atheists as yourself just give the rest of us calm, rational ones a bad name.

As an Atheist, I have no problem with the occasional Moment of Silence. In school, we'd average one or two "moments of silence" per year, after national or local tragedies.

It's not so much a religious thing as a respect and remembrance thing. Not once did anyone - even the worst, loudmouth clowns in the class - EVER disturb the moment of silence. These moments gave a sense of community, a way for everyone to acknowledge their grief and pain, and understand that they were not alone.

Now, some communities have taken this from the rare occasion and made it a daily event. Quite different from the Moment of Silence of my youth where everyone appreciated the opportunity, the forced, daily event has no meaning, no sense of community, and exists only to recognize religious ideology.

Forcing religion into the affairs of the state corrupts both the state and the religion. Religion is a personal issue, and must not be forced on anyone in any form.

I'm an atheist and I don't really see the moment of silence as religion-related. My school did them for 10 seconds after teachers/students died, and I think that's how it's done in the majority of schools. It's just a moment for (oh no, he said it!) silent reflection. You can say in bold typefaces that it's religiously affiliated, but I don't see how it can be. It just gives people a chance to mourn in their own ways. Silence is widely recognized culturally to be a signal of respect to the dead and all simply productive to that kind of introspection.

I'm an atheist (most of the kids at my school know who I am because of this and other reasons) and at my middle school in Seattle we have no prayer time. We just say the pledge of allegiance (kinda stupid, seeing as how I never had a father figure so people could sleep at night. And now my dad is back and transgendered.). I just leave out the under god part, and no one has asked me about it yet.

If my school had prayer time, I'd pray to the almighty Cthulu to kill them all. Hell, I should say under Cthulu. Just for laughs.

I live in Canada. As some of you might be aware, we have publicly funded Catholic schools due to a, let's say glitch, in our constitution. I still consider myself lucky as hell, since none of our teachers (save a few old-timers) even bother trying to preach Christianity anymore, the majority of the kids just don't give a damn. We have prayer time, in the mornings, which i probably prefer to the "moment of silence" or whatever, since we're not actually forced to stand. Plus the thoughts that our chaplain says over the P.A. during this time more often than not can apply equally to atheists, like the problem of AIDS in Africa. My point is, I think Catholic schools in Canada are more liberal than public schools in America, so my advice to all of you: move to Canada :).

This would never fly in my high school. Thirty seconds into the first one, people would start whipping out bibles and tearing them to shreds.

OK, I'm an 11th grade student and I'm Atheist. I am also a straight-A student, and I'm in a few advanced-placement classes. At my school, the 'moment of silence' is held during the announcements in the beginning of 2nd period (I happen to have AP chemistry that period). But, having only 50 minutes per class, we simply don't have time to wait the 5 or so minutes we are given for the moment of silence, especially if we are doing a lab. The point I'm trying to make is that school is for learning things like math, english, history and, of course, chemistry. Save the religious teachings and rituals for home, where parents can properly teach them. Even the hardcore Christians I know use the moment of silence to get some studying in. Being in high school, just 2 years away from graduation, we have bigger things to worry about.

(However, we are forced to stand during the pledge of allegiance and the pledge to the Texas flag, which, as of this year now includes the line 'under god'.)

Seriously? This is horrible?

If you really didn't have a religious standpoint, you wouldn't be so filled with hate anyways. I'm not an atheist, I'm not Christian. I'm not really affiliated to any religion or cult.

Because prayer isn't specified and they can't tell the children about god, this silent time actually enforces their ability to think constructively, reflect upon past events, and use their fucking brains.

Unlike you tools.

There is nothing in the Constitution about the Bible and there is nothing in the Bible about democracy or our Constitution.

Our Constitution never once mentions God or Christianity or any Commandments. It does not ask for divine blessings on our nation. It is a purely a humanistic document. The preamble begins, "We the people... do ordain and establish...

It mentions religion just twice, and both times the word "no" is attached. The first mention is in Art. VI "no religious test shall ever be required..." The second time is in the First Amendment in the Bill of Rights, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." The Constitution is a purely humanistic, religiously neutral, secular, and political document. No delegate thought the idea of a bicameral legislature came from divine revelation.

The Bible never once mentions democracy, a republic, or anything related to American values. The Bible never once mentions freedom of speech or freedom of religion. It does not mention separation of powers and limitations on the power of the executive; nor an independent judicial branch. It does not mention elections or voting. The Bible provides no model for 'good' government or for personal freedoms. It is a purely religious/theological document.

So it seems to me that Bible-reading and prayer in schools do not promote American civic or patriotic values at all.

This is complete and total bullshit. How much control can a generation endure? Clear backpacks, no handbags, zero tolerance, metal detectors, drug-sniffing dogs, secret searches, video cameras, GPS, and now forced prayer.

I didn't have any of those things in school and I felt as if there was too much control and structure. These kids are growing up under the bootheel of the most paranoid bunch of lemon-faced assholes the world has ever known.

Now, if I were in this situation, I'd get together outside of class and make a pact with my fellow students: During "moment of bullshit" time, we'd all just burst out laughing. Or sing a song. Whistle. Something.

These efforts to insert prayer into our public schools is totally transparent. Christians lie and deceive with gusto to achieve their goals. Seems that I remember a very hot place for the long term storage of those who commit such fraud. Glad I am not a xtian. The unfortunate children are the victims of such nonsense.

I think I want my child to be the first one to make those noises. ;) I want my kid to pull out his science text or a Dawkins book during the "moment of reflection". Hey! Why not reflect on something fucking useful!?

I completely agree with your post. This is such bullshit.

They are hurting our kids, and they are hurting America by weakening the separation of church and state.

And they see it just the opposite, which is important for us to remember. I am always, always, struck by just how fearful the Christian Right is - they fear that without God, people would run amok; that without God, our country will collapse; that without God, their children will become able to think on their own and so escape the authoritarian grip.

Well, OK, they're right on that last point.

But my larger point is that much of religion seems all about fear, and this explains a lot about how and why they react to things the way they do. I think that they are afraid that unless they get government in on the indoctrination early, there's too great a chance that their children will indeed develop the ability to think for themselves. This also explains why they resist the teaching of evolution - it threatens their authority to not have God as the center of everything.

That's what I think.

Jim Downey

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Like Science Fiction? Read my novel, Communion of Dreams, for free.

The only reason for a moment of silence is to get religion in public schools through the back door. If a moment of silence helps kids so much, then why don't they have one before every class period or after lunch or PE when kids are apt to be all worked up again?

And WTF is up with those kids standing in the picture? Do schools make kids stand during the moment of silence? I always pictured them sitting in their chairs, where they could either pray or read or close their eyes and get an extra minute of sleep. Forcing kids to stand really limits their options and makes it even more obvious what the true intent is.

My opinion: Moment of Silence == Bullshit Religious Indoctrination

Good article. I am going to have to send this to my father. He is a Superintendent of a school district in New Jersey and also he holds some (I forget exactly what) part time position at the National Science Foundation. He is not a scientist, but an administator. Still, I keep trying to get him interested in our struggle. Unfortunately this is the same man who made me go to church/Sunday school, summer bible camps and two years worth of confirmation classes. I keep sounding the alarm. I even bought him Dawkins' book "The God Delusion" two Xmas' ago. He usually blows me off saying things like "oh that stuff only happens in the South." Or "we have nothing to worry about here." Bullshit! This prayer-in-the-classroom-crap is encroaching everywhere and this article confirms our fears.

One of the things about this article is that before New Jersey, my family lived in Illinois. And not too far from Hinkley-Big Rock. Maybe the threat will finally hit home that religion is a problem even in Blue State America.