Observations and inanities by a second-shift assistant supervisor in the Puppy-Grinding division of the Evil Atheist Conspiracy® (our motto: "Sure it's cruel, but think of the jobs!"), your host, Brent Rasmussen.
The Golden Compass
Although I'm late to this game, I didn't feel like I could contribute to the argument without having seen the movie or read the book. I bought the trilogy recently, finished the first and have started into the second book.
Minor non plot spoilers ahead
As has been said other places, the people objecting to this movie have completely missed the boat. In Pullman's fantasy world there are multiple dimensions and, as is clearly explained in the books, no god. There is a being that calls itself god but it was simply the first self aware being. It's all there in print. The first being didn't create the universes and thus is not god. Their objections about "killing God" are not only silly, but entirely baseless.
Reading comprehension people. It works.
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Well, I DID read the book...
I finished the book version today, and don't think I will see the movie. But not for the reasons you may think.
I found that Pullman's story us ultimately pessimistic. The story starts a 3-part battle between "Evil" and "Not Evil". There is no positive "Good" anywhere I could find. It seemed that simply setting people free from the tyranny of "The Church" was an implied good thing, but there is no stand-alone, positive "good" that anyone is fighting *for*. Except maybe the Gyptians' expedition to rescue the missing children. Nah, that is still just defeating evil.
I didn't find any of the characters all that likeable. Only ones I did't like, and those I didn't like less.
If I compare the Golden Compass with The Lion,The Witch and The Wardrobe, I come to this contrast: In GC, it is the enemy that is portrayed in familiar terms (The Church=The Church), while in LWW, it is the sage (Aslan=Christ). Pullman's point is destroying an evil without replacing it with anything positive, simply leaving a void. Lewis' is about something positive that must destroy an opposing evil.
And I don't think Pullman even gets his "evil" right. If he wants to portray the Church as the enemy, and wants his take his readers to the same conclusion, he should have at least used a more historically correct portrayal. All I saw was a simplistic, one-dimensional caricature based on popular misconceptions about christian history.
I even find the same lack of a positive *for* in the title "atheist". "No-God" is still a negation (or at best, a void), not a positive assertion, like "Christian"
"I believe in preaching to the converted; for I have generally found that the converted do not understand their own religion." -G.K. Chesterton
No-Good Negations
Heh. Pulling a nail out of your foot is a good thing. Casting off the chains of slavery is good. Stopping an oppressor from killing your people is good. Recovering from an accident, or a disease, is good. Escaping an abusive husband is good. Getting free of alcoholism is good.
All of those things are not only good, they've made good, moving, uplifting, POSITIVE stories. Well, except for the pulling the nail out of your foot thing, and when my new novel comes out, "The Nail in My Foot" ...
I read all those Narnia books when I was younger, and it was 20 years after before I came across the idea that they were Christian allegory. I was instantly disappointed.
I loved the Narnia movie. I'm a sucker for talking animals, and the beavers were worth the price of admission all by themselves.
I chuckled that not a single Christian noticed that many of the creature-characters resembled nothing so much as demons. Sure, there was an evil bull-man in charge of the witch's army, but most of the creatures on Aslan's side were no less demonic in appearance. Satyrs, horned man-goats, naked male centaurs, etc. It was a nice Hollywood joke, and the Christians swooned over it anyway.
Straczynski was MUCH better...
As I understand it, the central story of Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy entails Lyra crossing over to new worlds, and eventually killing The First One. This is much like the overall arc of Babylon 5. But J. Michael Straczynski did a far, far better job of weaving an engaging story using more complex, believable and likable characters. And he didn't have to make such an obvious swipe at the Church and Christians to do so. And JMS *is* an atheist.
Your examples of good things are still defined in terms their negative. Some form of return to 'normal' from an 'abnormal' state - not an improvement from 'normal' to something 'better'. Buddhists, Communists, Confucianists, are all atheists, but they are *for* something bigger than themselves - they have a positive something that defines them other than the negation "there is no god".
Satyrs, Pan-goats, centaurs, gryffins, etc. being a nice Hollywood joke? Hardly. They were in the books. And Lewis even went farther than that - including the wizard Merlin in the Perelandra trilogy, and the imaginary letters between demons in his Screwtape Letters. And lest you forget, Lewis had been an Strong Atheist like Pullman and wrote about his change to Christian in his Surprised by Joy.
I read all those Narnia books when I was younger, and it was 20 years after before I came across the idea that they were Christian allegory. Hmmm... Guess you haven't heard that Lewis and Tolkien had a MAJOR disagreement as to whether allegory should be obvious (as in Narnia) or more subtle (like Lord of the Rings).
"I believe in preaching to the converted; for I have generally found that the converted do not understand their own religion." -G.K. Chesterton
...
I named negative-good things only because you spoke of them. I was making the point that recovery from a bad can be perceived as a good, can be something to aspire to, and can be the basis of a positive storyline.
Well, yeah.
Well, yeah. And I haven't even read the books. But I'll say that because JMS is a genius. Obviously.
(Those links are for richg's benefit - who, even though he is a crazed godder, can't be all bad if he likes JMS.)
Jim Downey
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Like Science Fiction? Read my novel, Communion of Dreams, for free.
Thanks, Jim
I take that as a compliment.
Last month, I finished a marathon re-watching of the entire B5 series DVDs. The story arc holds together even better when taken in large doses as some of the more subtle themes come into better focus that way.
I've downloaded your novel, and look forward to reading it.
Your Communion of Dreams website looks great! I will poke around a bit - your writing looks well thought-out, and I enjoy being challenged intelligently.
Even though we don't agree in one specific area.
"I believe in preaching to the converted; for I have generally found that the converted do not understand their own religion." -G.K. Chesterton
My pleasure.
I've watched the whole thing through maybe . . . 9 or 10 times? Don't do marathons now, but it was the default for "what shall we watch while having dinner with my MIL?" for the last four or five years. My wife and I can go through an episode with the sound off, just quoting dialog to one another. Yeah, I'm a geek.
Enjoy the book. And the site.
Jim Downey
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Like Science Fiction? Read my novel, Communion of Dreams, for free.
Surprised by normal routine
Donahue has been quoted as saying that these movies will make kids want to read the books and "introduce them to the virtues of atheism and the horrors of catholicism." He also says the movie is "slipping atheism in, in a backdoor fashion."
In this statement I observe a serious problem not only in comprehension of what actually happens in the real world, but also a deep seated antagonism against that same reality. To wit: "slipping atheism in, in a backdoor fashion"?
Pardon my incredulity, but isn't atheism a well known fact? Is it not among the chief evils that the (read, any) church has been fighting since their very beginnings? Do adults and their children not understand, or indistinctly suspect, that not all humans subscribe to the cult of magical origins and manipulation of reality?
OK, for the sake of disclosure, I once did. (Much embarrassment and innocent dragging of my toe in the sand.)
How can a well known and, I gotta say it, omnipresent! threat be "snuck" into a mammoth, all pervading, well observed paradigm like religion? The man speaks as though this was a first, fer crissake. Sheesh. Now I have to back up and start my argument all over. Step One: Your senses do not mislead you. Your interpretation of your senses sometimes do. Feelings are not reflections of reality. To interpret reality takes effort. One supplies one's own effort.
And what to make of his statement that atheism will "introduce them to the virtues of atheism and the horrors of catholicism?" Is this an admission that atheism has values and that catholicism (or any randomly chosen religion) has horrors? Gee, as stated, it appears so. We must be making headway brothers and sisters! Damn the torpedoes. Full speed ahead!
"You got to walk that lonesome valley.
You got to walk it by yourself.
Oh, nobody else can walk it for you.
You got to walk it by yourself."
'Nuff said. E Pluribus Unum
Christards
I'm still miffed about all the crap thrown at the Harry Potter series.
Shriek Shriek! They're bad! They teach children witchcraft and satanic rituals! Shriek!
As most of us here know, the entire series was about devotion to friends, self-sacrifice, courage, sharing, teamwork, families, brotherhood, the value of knowledge and hard work, all the good human traits you could name.
Which leads me to add that some of these people we're talking about are not only stupid, they're also actively evil. Evil because they worked to keep such valuable lessons away from children only because the lessons didn't come wrapped in THEIR sectarian packaging.
Innocent vs. Diabolical Magic
Confession first. When Harry Potter first came out, I refused to go see it. I didn't make any public statements or rants about the "Evil Movie" but I didn't want to support a movie that made magic as a central theme.
Then a charismatic Lutheran pastor (VERY conservative Missouri Synod) said something like "What's the big deal, even Disney movies have witchcraft, and no one objects to them." Hmmm...
Here's my opinion - many Christians do not know the difference between "innocent" and "diabolical" magic. The first has a simplicity, not-very-serious, just-for-fun quality, a child-like innocence and wonder, and is relatively harmless. I place HP in this category.
As for Golden Compass (and the whole Dark Materials trilogy), I am holding off judgment until I read them for myself.
Magic.
Rich, you seem like a nice guy. Here's a Welcome from me too. But I'd also like to mention:
I think it can safely be said there's probably no such thing as magic. So the difference between "innocent" magic and "diabolical" magic is not one worth worrying about too much.
Witchcraft? Haha, George W. Bush can kill a million Iraqis by proxy and then sleep like a baby every night, and some of us worry that the REAL evil is a couple of wrinkled old women dancing around in their knickers and hoping a goatlike devil will show up? Is that skewed values, or what?
Harry Potter is "relatively" harmless? I'm curious about the reservation.
And ... you have some idea that The Golden Compass just might possibly turn out to contain true evil?
...
Just tonight, I went to the supermarket and passed by one of those big glass toy-vending machines that has the little crane inside where you win whatever you can grab and manipulate over to the chute. Right up front, plain as day, was a bright red, horned, tailed, pitchfork-wielding "Hot Stuff the Little Devil."
There was not a Christian in sight to bring it to the attention of the news media. No indignant mother snatched her children out of the store and vowed to never shop there again. There were no chanting, praying, weeping masses lamenting the evil presence of this literal devil, grinning bold as brass out of his glass chamber, right between the RedBox DVD vending machine and the suggestive bundles of firewood. No devout local politicians vowed to get to the bottom of the situation. The toy company wasn't promising to remove the thing, just to be on the safe side. No letter writers were there to pen indignant "shocked and horrified" letters to the local paper. Not a peep out of the Pope.
Thanks to all these Christian slackers, our very world may be doomed.
Thank you.
Rich, you seem like a nice guy. Here's a Welcome from me too.
Thanks.
I think it can safely be said there's probably no such thing as magic. So the difference between "innocent" magic and "diabolical" magic is not one worth worrying about too much.
There may be a cause to worry - when they stop playing the fun-and-games kind and start playing with the real knives and blood.
Harry Potter is "relatively" harmless? I'm curious about the reservation.
There are always a few gullible souls who don't know when to leave it in the theater. This goes for almost any movie, whether The Matrix or Lord of the Rings.
And ... you have some idea that The Golden Compass just might possibly turn out to contain true evil?
Too soon to tell. I have heard that Philip Pullman has a desire to wipe out Christianity, but I want to make up my own mind about his stories. But I still won't read anything from L. Ron Hubbard because of his dianetics and scientology.
Ahem.
Hey, *I* have a desire to wipe out Christianity. One thinking person at a time.
I've already turned two. Fear me. :)
But I'm not singling out Christianity. I'd be happy if I could also eliminate Islam, the flying saucer believers, those who think they're going to win the lottery, and the people who still think Ann Coulter is pretty, and warthogs are ugly.
Just because I'm joking, don't think I'm not serious. Religion, especially including Christianity, is probably the greatest tragedy ever to befall humanity, and the planet Earth.
At least you're trying to do it honestly
Hey, *I* have a desire to wipe out Christianity. One thinking person at a time.
I've already turned two. Fear me. :)
Do I need to be afraid of you? Is this in a dark alley? (just kidding)
But I'm not singling out Christianity. I'd be happy if I could also eliminate Islam, the flying saucer believers, those who think they're going to win the lottery, and the people who still think Ann Coulter is pretty, and warthogs are ugly.
Agreement on 5 out of 6 shouldn't be all that bad.
Just because I'm joking, don't think I'm not serious.
Sometimes a little ridicule can illustrate a point far more efficiently than a ton of dry logic. So, joke on-
Religion, especially including Christianity, is probably the greatest tragedy ever to befall humanity, and the planet Earth.
Not sure I agree with this. Mankind has been essentially religious for far longer than recorded history. Christianity is a *relative* newcomer, combining primarily aspects of Judaism and Platonic thought. Some have said it took the best parts of nearly all mankind's religions and fulfilled them, or at least tamed them.
But politically, people have been far safer under a nominally Christian rulership than other forms, especially the Islamic and officially atheist (Marxist-Stalinist) regimes.
At least here, all you have to worry about is the annoying neighbor trying to cram his brand of religion down your throat. Me, I'd far rather put up with that annoying amateur evangelist than live daily wondering if today I am going to get rounded up and shot or beheaded. (Ethiopia, Sudan, Indonesia, N. Korea come to mind).
Both
They are both hideous. I once worked with with one of the talk radio brainwashed and he thought she was 'hot'. I shuddered whenever the subject came up. She is definitely one of those women I would pay to keep her clothes on.
Reading comprehension
Why is it that most of the people who are anti-some-random-book for religious reasons can never get the facts about the book in question strait. For example I've seen someone who was protesting the books being made into movies say that if children saw the movies or read the books it would make them think it was OK to kill god in their minds. Now putting aside the obvious fact that you can't really kill something that doesn't exist if there were an all-powerful god I hardly see how wanting to kill it would be a problem.
Another example, I was telling someone online about how this professor in Texas got told he was going to hell by some Christian student because he said that the center of the earth isn't hot because the devil is there. I was careful to phrase my rant in a way that could be read as "not saying whether the devil's down there or not but that's not the reason the center of the earth is hot" and this Christian immediately jumped down my throat for belittling his religion.
Anti-Book People
I can tell you why those people never get their facts straight.
It's because they're banjo-plucking retards straight out of Deliverance, and THEY DON'T READ FUCKING BOOKS. They've got two pounds of brains, fifty pounds of indignant opinions, and a thousand pounds of full-bore, thumb-sucking need for attention.
And we have a media full of compliant dullards willing to treat them as straight news.
Viciously Anti-God
Sorry. Didn't see the movie or read any of the books, but I hope they make more because watching Bill Donahue freak out and call for a boycott is very entertaining. Donahue has been quoted as saying that these movies will make kids want to read the books and "introduce them to the virtues of atheism and the horrors of catholicism." He also says the movie is "slipping atheism in, in a backdoor fashion."
Let's face it, when Focus on the Family calls the movie "viciously anti-god," well the film makers must have done something right.
From what I can gather thru various media reports and reviews I've read, it seems the films basic message was to think for yourself. I can see how religous leaders would be scared of that happening.
Funny (Minor spoilers, again non-plot related)
That's funny because despite these books being written by an "out" atheist, they're full of fantasy. I'm about halfway through the second book and there's no atheist, secular, or rationalist theme. All people have their own "daemon" which takes the form of some animal companion, there's clearly an afterlife and there are "angels". Angels and D(a)emons don't take a form that's common but the whole thing is steeped in the fantasy world that Pullman has created.
I don't want any of you to think that I'm using the word "fantasy" in a negative fashion either. I like this sort of thing. I just don't see how this work of fantasy fiction could possibly lead anyone to stray from Christianity. In fact, Narnia, to a rational person, could do more damage to a Christian's faith in my opinion. (I've read the entirety of that series.)
It's understandable
I think it's perfectly understandable why Christians see The Golden Compass as a threat: any child that grows up with a practiced ability to distinguish fantasy from reality is at an increased risk to realize which of the two Christianity itself is. :)
Cheap shots aside, there's more than a little truth in that assessment. Like competes against like. Politicians feel threatened by other politicians, athletes compete against other athletes, soldiers fight against other soldiers, and Christianity battles against other fantasies (Harry Potter, TGC, D&D, etc). Christians don't object to Narnia precisely because it is the same fantasy, just dressed up a little differently.
Because God does not show up in the real world, Christians have no real-world basis for their faith. This makes it so vulnerable that it can be significantly threatened by the mere possibility of thinking up other myths. There's no guarantee, you see, that the new myths won't turn out to be better than Christianity. That's why Paul urged the Corinthians to join him in "taking every thought captive to the obedience to Christ." Free thought inevitably exposes the internal inconsistencies of the Faith.
i see stupid people
Atheists get in trouble when we call religious people stupid but really they earn the title all by themselves. As an atheist, I can enjoy non-secular art. I have no problem whatsoever with religiously-inspired art. (Admittedly, most of the modern stuff is crap but there has been tons of great religious art.)
So why is it that religious people are so fearful of words and ideas that reading a fictional book, which happened to have been written by an atheist, about a fictional world incites such a response? It's stupid, literally.
Those books are not remotely anti-Catholic or anti-religious. They are anti-authoritarian, perhaps, which is not unique to them at all.
Well...
..the answer to your rhetorical question is probably contained within the question itself..they are fearful that the words and ideas in a 'fictional book' may be taken as seriously as they themselves consider the words and ideas in their fictional book.
If the bibble can be taken seriously and as fact, any other work of fiction might present a threat to their particular fantasies...oh, by irrational, uncritical non-thinkers I mean--you know, stupid people who will believe just about anything. After all, isn't one book of fairy tales as credible as any other?
Really, it's sad that these people have to worry so much about a bit of fluff and fun, while the world falls apart and goes to shit around us. Down the rabbit hole indeed.
Many fundies simply reject
Many fundies simply reject any fiction in which The Christian God does not exist, or can be observed behaving substantially differently from the way they believe he would behave. So, whether the characters in The Golden Compass are out to kill god, or just the creature that calls itself god, it doesn't make any difference to them.
This does not change your point, however.
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