
Observations and inanities by a second-shift assistant supervisor in the Puppy-Grinding division of the Evil Atheist Conspiracy® (our motto: "Sure it's cruel, but think of the jobs!"), your host, Brent Rasmussen.
Falsely Equating Atheism With Nihilism
Graham Preston at Online Opinion plays devil's advocate:
[link] Let’s take it as given that Richard Dawkins is correct: God does not, and never has, existed.
With that being so, what necessarily follows about life, the universe and everything?
He then proceeds to barrel wildly into wrong-headed, opinionated oblivion by treating "atheism" and the philosophy "nihilism" as synonyms.
More below the fold...
[link] This is not to deny that individuals or groups of people do not manufacture their own goals or direction for life; of course they do. It is typical of religious beliefs, for example, that there be a heaven or nirvana awaiting the faithful one day. But according to an atheistic ontology these are merely vain imaginings. It may well be the case that the universe will one day collapse back into nothingness or that life may flourish on every planet, but whatever happens it will not be because of some great cosmic scheme. There is no such scheme, hence there can be no ultimate meaning, purpose or goal which anyone need strive towards or care about. In that sense no person can be a success or a failure. It simply does not matter to matter what happens.
This remains true not just in relation to the whole of life but also in regards to all the moral decisions made along the way. Nothing that a person or any other creature does is the right or the wrong thing to do in any given situation. This is so because there never is, within an atheistic framework, any such thing as the right or wrong thing to do.
Later, in the comments, he responds to a comment from an atheist:
[comment link] And I did state very clearly that I acknowledge that people and societies do make up their own meaning and moral codes - but that is all they are - manufactured fictions. One moral code, such as Hitler's, is as 'good' or as 'bad' as another's, such as Mandela's.
Graham is neglecting to take evolutionary feedback into account. Yes, morality and ethics are manufactured, but they are not consciously manufactured by individuals like Hitler and Mandela. They are emergent properties of human societies.
"Good" and "bad" are deceptive, emotionally-laden words that do not quite convey the correct meaning that needs to be conveyed here. We need to define our terms. "Good" in this context should mean "a successful survival strategy", and "bad" should mean "an unsuccessful survival strategy".
(Please note that I said "in this context" above. That is, within the context of Graham's assertion that in an "atheist" world, Hitler's and Mandela's moralities are both neither good nor bad. They are equal because there is no "ultimate meaning". That is the context that I am referring to here. Obviously, in everyday common speech, the words "good" and "bad" denote some very specific meanings when we use them - meanings that would not exist without the framework of an evolutionarily successful morality surrounding them.)
Our ethics and moralities develop and flourish because they are either a useful survival strategy (IE - they help our species survive), or they are not a useful survival strategy (in which case they are modified until they do work well, or until the species does not survive - in which case the point is moot. Game over.). The larger the number of individuals within a society, the better the feedback is over generations, and the morality and ethics for a given society of human beings is polished and honed to the point where it works well consistently, becoming a useful tool in assisting our species' survival.
When you get right down to brass tacks, the only true measure of a species' success is whether or not it still exists - whether or not it survives.
The ethics and moralities that us humans have developed over hundreds of thousands of years work well. That is the reason why morality exists. We are still here. There are indeed local cases, like a Hitler or a Stalin where for a while a different morality is attempted. If it is successful, it is adopted into the wider society. If it is not successful, as in both of those cases, the societies that gave birth to these aberrant moralities do not survive. Morality is a species-level survival tool that pre-dates Christianity. Christianity adopted an existing morality and declared that their God created it. Yes, Christianity is a moral parasite, co-opting that which already exists for it's own purposes.
The truth is that to date there is no good evidence for the existence of any supernatural agency of any kind whatsoever. It is wishful thinking and self-deception to assume that there is in the face of this massive absence of evidence. The human species will continue to survive for as long as it can - that is the nature of any species on our planet. The way we survive *may be* to employ self deception and wishful thinking - who is to say what strategy will be successful in the long term? Or, it may be to embrace our natural morality that has allowed us to come this far and strip away the magical religious trappings we have draped over it throughout the years.
What Graham does not understand is that atheism is merely the absence of god belief within a human being. It isn't a "world view", or a religion, or a philosophy. It doesn't "logically lead" to anything at all. It is a singular description, suggesting *nothing* except that absence of god belief in a human being that I mentioned above. Most important and relevant to his article however, is that atheism most certainly does not equal nihilism. Nihilism is a silly philosophy that does not take large group dynamics and feedback into account.
In short, he seems to have used the word "atheism" where he should have used the word "nihilism" in his article. I would not have any problem with it then. Atheism and nihilism are not synonyms, and using them as such is disingenuous.















Suppose, for the sake of
Suppose, for the sake of argument, that atheism did invariably lead to nihilism. Hell, suppose it led invariably to becoming a suicidal serial killer (serial killer before suicide, of course.) Even a nihilistic suicidal serial killer.
Suppose all of that, for the sake of argument.
What of it? What would any of that have to do with the truth or falsehood of the proposition "at least one god exists."?
The entire thing is an argument from consequences, which is a logical fallacy. The argument is this: "atheism leads to X. I don't like X. Therefore atheism is false."
In other words the argument on offer is completely fucking retarded, as usual, regardless of whether the proposition, "atheism leads to X" is true or false.
A new line of inquiry?
I first read of this when you wrote about it in your review of Vox Day's book and I thought, 'Hey I havent heard of this before.' I thought it was a fresh look at things. Is the idea original with you, Brent, or has this been around a long time? I ask because it is something that can be studied because of historical data that's available and is worth studying: Did Christianity offer something new or did it just co-opt the morality of the cultural environment? I hope someone takes it on.
(You said Christianity in the statement above, but perhaps you meant religion? Judaism pre-dates Christianity, and several others predate Judaism. In that case, the study would be more difficult.)
Not New, Just Obvious
Hi Jeg,
It is not a new line of inquiry as far as I am concerned, but rather one that is obvious, and that can be inferred from asserting that human ethics and morality are naturalistic and not supernatural.
In the context of replying to that one, specific article, I said "Christianity", but you are correct in a larger sense that it would apply to any religion in general that claims a supernatural origin for human morality and ethics.
rebut to richg
Everyone is aware that everything ends in the end. It is irrelevant though- the end of the universe is a greater distance away from me than the beginning... and of course we still don't fully understand the universe. After all, if we figure out how to manipulate the underlaying rules and structure of the universe itself (or make new universes) than we don't have to worry about the end. But it is true that in the end there probably will be nothing. So what? Why should I care? Why do you need immortality (either in mind or deed) for life to have meaning? This is yet another peace of baggage people carry in their minds without justification.
And I have looked at what "the end" is. Best guess is the heat death of the universe where the universe reaches maximum entropy and matter decomposes. Formless, infinite, nothingness... damn I wish I could live to see it. It would be so cool. You look in any direction and you will see light that is over a trillion years old!
Looking to the end of the long road
While I agree with you about atheism not being equal with nihilism, I think they are linked logically. True, "Atheism" in all its forms is about life absent a god, but if taken to its ultimate conclusion, ends in nihilism. The evolutionary advantages and disadvantages, health and disease, natural good and evil, are all things that keep us busy while we travel our individual piece of the road of time. But the road *does* end, ultimately, in destruction and nothingness.
We can manufacture meaning out of the events along the way, whether individually or collectively, but it is still manufactured by self-aware beings who want a meaning of some form, so as to not have to look 'way down the road of time and space to the nothingness awaiting.
In the end, I think most atheists are either afraid or unwilling to follow the logic to its ultimate conclusion, preferring, for sanity's sake, to pay attention mostly to the here-and-now.
"I believe in preaching to the converted; for I have generally found that the converted do not understand their own religion." -G.K. Chesterton
Surely you've heard of Silicon Heaven?
From Red Dwarf series 3 episode The Last Day:
--
"Ponies are atheists, you know, technically."
- Me
Assumptions
This is a false assumption on your part. Atheism simply means lack of belief in a god. It does not have an "ultimate conclusion", any more than the presence of god-belief (theism) has an ultimate conclusion. Some religions conclude that God snuffs your soul out if you die unworthy. Others say that everyone goes to heaven eternally. Others claim you get reborn as some other life form, until ultimately your consciousness blends with the universe. There is no one ultimate conclusion you can draw simply by knowing that someone has god-belief, and neither can you find one ultimate conclusion for everyone who lacks god belief.
I know it's tempting to draw someone else's conclusions for them ("You're so blind, can't you see where your beliefs ultimately are taking you!?" "How interesting, since in fact I am ending up waaaaaaay over here ..."), but it's generally an error to do so. Given a starting point of atheism, you can end up with literally an infinite number of conclusions, just as you can with theism.
Even a purely secular atheism doesn't necessarily end in nihilism. Maybe the person believes the universe expands to a point, collapses into a singularity, then rebounds via a "white hole" to explode once more, meaning there is no ultimate end to it all -- the universe just keeps repeating itself over and over.
Or maybe they believe that given infinite time, the laws of physics inevitably give rise to entire universes popping up out of the nothingness of quantum probability.
Or maybe they're an atheist who nonetheless believes in spirits and fairies, believing that while there is no god, there are nonetheless other states of being that we cannot directly perceive with our senses, and thus that we live on in some other way after death.
Or maybe they're an atheist who believes some other sort of thing that you and I cannot imagine right now, but which is perfectly consistent with a godless world.
Beginning with the lack of god belief tells you absolutely nothing about where the person in question will ultimately end up, philosophically, any more than beginning with god-belief will.
We're in the Matrix.
...just someone's computer simulation running.
42.
Jim Downey
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Like Science Fiction? Read my novel, Communion of Dreams, for free.
Looking to the end of the long road
I never get tired of having nice Christians define atheism for me. And despite never having understood, experienced or even read much about it, giving detailed analyses of what must go on in atheists' minds.
You could write a whole book.
In the end, I think most Christians are either afraid or unwilling to follow logic to any real conclusion, preferring, for fantasy's sake, to pay attention mostly to the pie-in-the-sky.
Whole books
Oh, they have, Hank; lots of books that pretend to know what's in our heads. "Atheism MUST lead to this or that"... yeah, I got your 'must lead' right here pal.
I don't expect the whole universe to preserve a little eternal shrine to my bit of consciousness; that seems like a lot to ask for. But how I live does matter. It matters to me, all the more so because I return to ashes and dust. Despite the lack of a threatening deity or a tortured eternity, I chose to live this way and not that way. I found value in the emergent morality of my species and it doesn't matter if the universe knows about it or not. I know.
It only seems like nihilism in comparison to the conceit of eternal glory that believers insist awaits them. A moral illusion, like those optical illusions where dots seem brighter or darker according to their visual context.
But It Was All So Much Fun, said the dead man.
I have often entertained the idea that the meaning of life is similar to the meaning of dance. I am not an accomplished dancer, but when I get down with the music and move, man I move. And it feels like the light of all the stars and moons shine on me alone. All in the making of motion from music. Looking back on it the next morning, it can seem so stupid and pointless. Even slightly embarrassing in light of the fact that nothing concrete comes of it. (This without respect to any romance that might accompany the dance. grin.) Yet I recall with inner glee certain nights, certain bands, certain songs, certain partners, certain joys.
I wonder. Could it be that lots of people are reluctant to celebrate the joy we have? Could it be that lots of people are convinced that to take joy in simply being able to know one is alive carries with it some dark, destructive seed? As if the acceptance of what is in hand negates the possibility of some greater thing? As if a bird in the hand was not worth two in the bush?
Surely not.
Oh, wait . . . sorry. For a moment there I really did think that all the light of heaven falls on me. What a knucklehead I must be.
Beautifully, wonderfully said
I like the idea of life as dance, as if we are living to make a creative expression, and that the meaning of our lives is precisely that expression.
Yes! The shamans need their people to feel guilty for enjoying life. If anyone should feel guilty, it should be the shamans for stealing the joy from living, from work, from the innocent play of children or the splendor of young love, of just being at any time of life. It is a theft that is made all the worse for being forced upon us as normative for human life.
Your joy in the dance is your real possession - don't let anyone steal it. Not religions, not people who feel they are too cool to dance and you ought to be like them.
...
Hear, hear! Well said!
Health
Good post Brent. Atheism seems to get saddled with an awful lot of philosophical positions, all of which (to the person making the argument) are perfectly normal and to be expected.
With regards to the specific argument Graham makes, I think you're right to put it in terms of survival value rather than good vs evil, or moral vs immoral. I usually prefer to put it in terms of healthy vs unhealthy, because whenever people hear "evolutionary fitness" they tend to recoil in horror, but everyone can grasp the idea of health.
I start out by pointing out that you don't have to believe in god to know what's healthy. Even if you grew up with no idea of God, no Bible, no church, no nothing, you'd know that your hand rotting off due to gangrene was unhealthy. You'd know that having a complete, undamaged body and mind is healthier than one wracked by disease. It's not hard to extend that metaphor to others -- healthy family, healthy town, healthy state, healthy culture, etc.
Of course you can argue endlessly about what a "healthy society" really is, but the point is that health vs unhealth is a dichotomy most people understand instinctively, rather than more nebulous things like good and evil or moral and immoral.
You lost me at the end
I think that nihilism as a philosophical concept is a bit more nuanced than you let on here. Having been a former believer, I've wrestled with nihilism and come to find it personally liberating. Like Camus and Nietzsche, I find nihilism to be the beginning of the search for meaning, rather than the end.
Post new comment