Observations and inanities by a second-shift assistant supervisor in the Puppy-Grinding division of the Evil Atheist Conspiracy® (our motto: "Sure it's cruel, but think of the jobs!"), your host, Brent Rasmussen.
I'm curious . . .
In following the news of the new Pew Research survey of religious belief in the US, I enjoyed the discussion over at PZ's place. But this passage in particular got me to wondering:
It's not all good news, though, and this one point here is something we must address.
To illustrate this point, one need only look at the biggest gainer in this religious competition -- the unaffiliated group. People moving into the unaffiliated category outnumber those moving out of the unaffiliated group by more than a three-to-one margin. At the same time, however, a substantial number of people (nearly 4% of the overall adult population) say that as children they were unaffiliated with any particular religion but have since come to identify with a religious group. This means that more than half of people who were unaffiliated with any particular religion as a child now say that they are associated with a religious group. In short, the Landscape Survey shows that the unaffiliated population has grown despite having one of the lowest retention rates of all "religious" groups.
So we're growing fast, but our children have a significant chance of 'backsliding' into some religion later in life. I suspect that is a consequence of the fact that most non-religious households will not provide any specific training in beliefs (I know I didn't!) and godlessness is often presented as simple disbelief without a body of associated positive values. We need to change that.
So, I don't have kids. And I was raised Catholic. I have no personal experience with how this is handled. And I'm curious how the folks here deal with it. If you, good skeptical atheist that you are, have kids, do/did you do anything to raise them to understand how there are solid intellectual underpinnings to to lack of god-belief? Alternatively, if you grew up in an non-religious household, did your parents provide any such education?
Jim Downey
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yeah
I don't have any kids but heres a story. My friend told me about trying to teach her son about the various religions of the world. He simply stared back at his mother as if she were saying the stupidest thing he'd ever heard. I don't think anyone is going to need to force atheism upon him, and good luck forcing religion on him.
I'll also say that if/when I have kids I'd like to think that I'll do thinks about like everyone here is describing. Let kids find their own way, just give them the tools to do it.
How we do it
Jim, great question as we're starting to face this at my house right now. My daughter will be 7 in June and son 5 in March. My daughtger already knows some of the things from school as they do the Christmas and Hanukkah and Kwanza thing. My wife has suggested we put together some explanations about the world religions and what we think about it all. She's much more non-judgemental about it than I am. I'd like to just say "people are crazy and we're not" and be done with it. I of course run the risk of being a fundamentalist and turning her to religion in her rebellious years.
I do hope to explain all of these things to them, have them read THE DEMON HAUNTED WORLD, explain how people can be fooled by their imaginations, that some people just plain lie, etc. Explain how people get their beliefs mostly from the people around them as rules of thumb, etc.
In short, we don't know what we're going to do exactly. The only thing I know for sure is I'm going to do my best to NOT be a fundamentalist about it. The rest of it I'll have to leave to their native intelligence and good sense.
And no matter what happens, whatever they decide, I will still love them and make sure they always know that.
not that simple
Just wait until your child is first attacked by a six-years old proselytizer... For my daughter it started in kindergarten: she came home crying because kids on the school playground were talking about heaven and hell, and explained to her that everybody who doesn't believe in god will go to hell. After that, a girl from her class started calling her every day with the same question: "Do you believe in god? You have to believe!"
We had no choice but to have long discussions about what other people mean when they say "god", and why we don't go to church, and about right to have different opinions, etc., etc., etc.
Critical thinking is all good but we had to actually teach her how to avoid these conversations, how to field off direct questioning, and how not to antagonize other kids without giving in.
And we don't live in a rural community somewhere in Alabama: our county is one of the most affluent and progressive in the country... Evangelical aggressiveness is growing very actively, and our children are prime targets for abuse.
Playground Preachers
I think it might be worth talking to the school, too. This could easily be considered a form of bullying.
We considered it and decided
We considered it and decided that school was not going to be much help - as with any other kind of bullying (you are right, that's exactly what it is). Being pretty strong and independent for her age, all she needed was some basic kind of understanding: why these kids behave the way they do, what makes us different from them, what the law says about it. Now she might be made uncomfortable by somebody's comments but knows enough not to feel miserable.
Non-religious childhood
My dad (Brent) as far as I can remember never brought up the topic of religion. Likewise, he never mentioned to me he was an atheist or try to force his lack of beliefs on me or my siblings. His atheism was something I figured out myself a few years ago (probably when I stumbled onto his blog for the first time -surprise!). I'm glad neither of my parents raised me to be religious or to even be non-religious. They gave me the option to completely and utterly choose for myself. I think the greatest gift they both gave me was the love of reading. I believe reading helped me better understand the world around me and how I fit into it - no religion necessary.
Thanks, Dad! :D
Imagine
You're welcome sweetie! :P
1.6% Is that it?
The part that shocked me was that only 1.6% reported to be atheists. Is that it? I thought we were more like 10% or even higher? Something has to be wrong here. Even if you add the atheists and agnostics together, its still only 4%.
How disappointing. I thought we were making progress. We have such a long way to go.
I counted differently
I added the secular unaffiliated group as well putting us up closer to 10%.
another thought
I think theres also a lot of people who in reality are agnostic/atheist but if asked will say christian simply because they went to church as a kid and they haven't put much thought into it since or because there is still such a stigma around the word atheist. Unfortunately theres really no way to survey that. I know there was a fair amount of time when I would sometimes mark christian and sometimes mark atheist depending on who was going to see the answer.
Also as noted by PZ Myers, 1.4% is still several million people more than the 0.4% (I think that was the number) that it was in the 90's. We're gaining ground but theres still a very long way to go.
sense of belonging
i don't have kids either but if you look at the so called religious folks- and look at why they are part of it all- many will say- to have something to believe in; to have a gathering place; sense of connection and commonality and community. it's easy to believe in god in this country- many of us are indoctrinated into it and then leave it. it is interesting to see that sometimes the opposite is true. perhaps inspiring community involvement and a sense of belonging to ideas and activities that are bigger than oneself when children are small. the biblical ideas of helping neighbors and gathering together with traditions were not developed out of a vacuum.
My Approach
I am trying to avoid the direct sell approach with my daughter. My goal is to instead help her develop critical thinking skills. When she asks questions about my beliefs and those of others I try to answer them as best I can given her ability to understand. But I am trying not to force atheism on her. I believe that the things we figure out on our own stay with us longer and with greater strength than those that are given to us. However, given that she gets some religious indoctrination from her mother, grandparents, and society it is sometimes difficult to bite my tongue around her about religion.
So forgive me if I couldn't help myself when she misunderstood something her grandmother told her and came to believe that said grandmother's god was a small rock.
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