Observations and inanities by a second-shift assistant supervisor in the Puppy-Grinding division of the Evil Atheist Conspiracy® (our motto: "Sure it's cruel, but think of the jobs!"), your host, Brent Rasmussen.
"Cults get raided, religions get parades."
I think just about anyone would agree that Bill Maher should be considered an atheism activist. Yeah, he does so through his humor, but nonetheless he is very effective at pointing out the absurdities of religion.
I don't watch his show (I don't really watch any television these days), so I had missed the latest flap over something he said (go to about 3:30 on that clip). But this morning a friend sent me a link to this Chicago Tribune news item:
Calls to fire Bill Maher after criticism of pope, Catholic Church
While most of the media attention focused on Pope Benedict XVI's trip to the United States was overwhelmingly positive, one television show host's choice words for the pope and the Catholic Church landed him in hot water. And an apology has only stoked the fire.
Bill Maher, host of "Real Time" on HBO, spouted off a rant on his April 11 live show that had many calling for his resignation.
As Benedict was readying for a six-day trip to the United States, Maher was critical of the Catholic Church because he feels the religion was treated differently after its sexual abuse scandal because of its history, size and clout. Maher also took comedic jabs at the pope, commenting on his attire and harping on the fact he was part of Hitler Youth -- a group he was forced to join and one he eventually fled.
Maher said: "If you have a few hundred followers and you let some of them molest children, they call you a cult leader. If you have a billion, they call you 'pope.' "
Who's behind this? Predictably, Bill Donohue, president of the The Catholic League, along with other Catholic activist. The apology that got Maher into further trouble? Here:
So, on that score, you know what, my Catholic friends, I will never make the "pope is a Nazi" joke again. Because, you're technically right, OK, and also because it distracts from the main point. And the main point I was making was that if the pope, instead of a religious figure, was the CEO of a chain of nationwide day care centers who had thousands of employees who had been caught molesting children and then covering it up, he would have been in jail.
Personally, I don't see the problem. And I'd bet that the members of SNAP would agree.
Oh, one side-note: on the Trib's news item this "poll":
Vote: Should they can him?
Should Bill Maher be fired after his comments about the pope?
Yes, they were inappropriate
No, it's just an act
Um, where's the option to vote for "No, he was right"?
Jim Downey
(Another tip of the hat to ML.)
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Who is Bill Maher?
Where can I watch his show?
Nappy hair?
If the pope was black, then...WTF is this thread about again??
Facts
It wasn't a rant by Bill Maher, but simple presentation of facts.
Good thing...
the pope doesn't have nappy hair, or Maher would be gone for sure.
You just had to go there
"Nappy" hair? You couldn't just say "Good thing the pope isn't Black" or "...African American" or "non-white", and make an excellent point? What insight your comment would have had (and you're undoubtedly correct, by the way) is lost in what seems to be a stupid, racist viewpoint.
Why didn't you just use the "N" word, for fucks sake.
Rob Miles
--
There are only 10 types of people in the world;
those who understand binary and those who don't.
Imus
Psst. I'm pretty sure that it was a reference to the Don Imus flap from a few months ago.
Ever heard of Don Imus?
Ever heard of Don Imus?
Absolutely
But what does his getting in trouble for calling young women "Nappy headed hoes" have to do with you saying "It's a good thing the pope doesn't have nappy hair"? You were basically saying that if the pope were Black, Maher would be in terrible trouble (and I agree, by the way.)
But you had to refer to "what if he were Black" by saying "what if he had nappy hair." Don Imus didn't think that was offensive either.
Rob Miles
--
There are only 10 types of people in the world;
those who understand binary and those who don't.
Aggressive offendedness
Sudo should be killed. Obviously he hates black people with a maniacal passion, and is not fit to be among the rest of us blameless, perfect beings. It's about time he was found out, after hiding this insane, uncontrollable hatred all these years.
I say we do an Uday Hussein on him and toss him into a wood chipper. Feet-first.
... Jeez.
Yea, I see what you did there.
I happen to think people shouldn't use racial slurs casually, even an apparently upstanding, irreproachable individual like the great and powerful Sudo. You apparently don't think people should stand up to such small injustices (all he did was refer to Black people as nappy headed, for goodness sakes!), so you ramp my comments up to the extreme so that I look like some kinda wingnut.
Ha! What great fun!
Well, now I know this blog supports racial slurs, so I'll be sure to throw them in every chance I get. I wouldn't want to be Jew, after all.
Jeez, indeed!
Rob Miles
--
There are only 10 types of people in the world;
those who understand binary and those who don't.
Ahem.
I agree with you about the use of racial slurs.
My point was that the reaction was a little over the top — I don't think Sudo meant any such thing. Our whole society is mean-spirited about the occasional, often entirely unintentional, use of such language. Yeah, we all need to watch it, but a gentle reminder can work too, and doesn't brand the person who said the thing an evil shit.
I once made what I considered a very mild joke on a feminist blog, and I was suddenly the Evil Overlord of Women-Hating Men. The response was vicious and extreme, and pretty much uncalled for, not only because I'm not like that, but because a slap on the wrist or a virtual eye-roll would have worked just as well. If your dog accidentally pees on the floor, you don't call for a napalm airstrike.
Not only do I never comment on that blog anymore, or any feminist blog, but I now avoid getting involved in women's issues at all, for fear I'll say the wrong thing and become the enemy. They didn't stop me from caring, but they sure stopped me from speaking and participating.
I just want us to be clear that we in the pro-rational community don't unintentionally flame our friends as if they were deliberate enemies, and so lessen the number of active, involved friends.
Wow.
Did I stir up some controversy! And this in only just a few days of posting here. Geez.
For the record, I think Imus was an idiot for saying what he did. I also agree with Mr. Fox:
It seems like everybody and their brother's mother is on the alert, every sense finely tuned, waiting to hear or see somebody make some kind of comment they can find offensive. I certainly don't believe Mr. Rasmussen and Mr. Downey support the use of racial slurs. It's unfair to exaggerate and characterize it so, merely because one poster (me) made a comment referring to a recent politically and racially charged incident, in a somewhat irreverent and un-PC manner.
Where is the outrage for Maher's comments? Catholics are fair game but not blacks, Jews, homosexuals, or women. Got it.
Well, I'm put in my place
My apologies, Sudo. I was too quick to take offense at what I considered a racial slur. I suppose you could have said "good thing the pope doesn't have big lips" or "... a wide nose" or "...eat watermelon and fried chicken" and I would have been just as wrong.
Carry on, y'all. Next time I'll wait to see if anyone else finds something offensive before I dare to speak up.
Rob Miles
--
There are only 10 types of people in the world;
those who understand binary and those who don't.
... on the alert
I agree completely.
I recently started referring to the spirit behind all this as "A Free Ticket to Hurt Somebody." I see it in everybody from feminists to cops, and beyond in both directions.
Without knowing the real history of the thing (maybe it's always been with us), it seems to me that, in my lifetime at least, liberals first got it rolling in the 60s, but conservatives perfected it in the 90s and carried it to its most vicious extreme.
There are conservative voices on the airwaves today who seem little different spiritually from Nazis or the KKK, and they get paid handsomely for ceaselessly attacking the people they're allowed to target -- liberals, or the Clintons, or the Saddam-loving traitors who question our freedom-loving, sensitive, intelligent and wise president.
It looks to me like they've wrecked our society. The divisive meanness permeates just about every public discussion now. Some of the latest targets are science, education and separation of church and state, and the movie Expelled is only the most recent shot fired. The brainless rabidity of the whole thing is just scary as hell. I'm not sure some of these people are capable of even knowing they're doing something wrong (O'Reilly, Coulter, Rove, and now Ben Stein), or of stopping themselves if they did.
That would be correct.
That would be correct.
Outrage? Hell, I agree with him.
Being black, or Jewish, or homosexual, or a woman is not a choice (well, except possibly in the case of someone who is transgender, and even there gender reassignment is more a matter of trying to set right something that was a mistake of development). Being Catholic is a choice. Certainly, being Pope is a choice. Holding people responsible for their choices is fair game, far as I am concerned. But I speak only for myself, not for Brent or anyone else.
Jim Downey
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Like Science Fiction? Read *or listen to* my novel, Communion of Dreams, for free.
Actually...
I agree with Maher as well. I think an even more striking comparison than Maher's CEO is the one that you mentioned - a few hundred followers and you're a cult leader. A billion and you're the Pope. It's interesting that the Mormon fundies in Texas had their children taken away from them for arranging marriages between teens and older men, whereas in the Catholic church the priests are the ones who are sent away and the families are left to file lawsuits for damages.
Actually...
I thought my original response to Sudo WAS a gentle reminder, a slap on the wrist, and/or a virtual eye-roll. (But I did use the word "fuck", so... well, bad on me, I guess.) The "Oh, I was just referring to Don Imus" defense didn't really work for me, because I don't see how that really excuses using the slur "nappy hair", but I guess I'm just flying off the handle, calling in napalm strikes, and the like.
I don't know from Sudo: I'm fairly new to the community, so I don't know if Sudo is a regular around these parts or not. I don't know if Sudo is really a racist who just happened to pull a drive-by, or just someone who made a good point in an unfortunately bad way. I don't want Sudo to leave the community, but is it too much to ask for a "oops, yea, I probably shouldn't have said it that way, sorry"?
I guess it is.
Rob Miles
--
There are only 10 types of people in the world;
those who understand binary and those who don't.
Newbs
Rob,
I'm new to this community as well. I've only posted a few times, and felt that a bit of irreverent humor would not be found so offensive. I understand why you feel the way you do, and yes, I did perceive your reaction as somewhat of a tirade. However, I'm not a racist, but nor do I feel that every politically incorrect use of a term to make a point should be taken literally, or out of context as it were.
I certainly didn't want to cause others to have to come out of the woodwork in defense of one of my first few posts here at UTI. I decided to start posting here mainly because I saw Mr. Downey's post a few days ago specifically asking people why they no longer post.
At any rate, I understand your frustration, and hope that you as well understand that my reference to the Don Imus incident was to provoke thought about the way in which our society handles racial, political, and religious issues in different ways. And I admit, I thought it would be a biting, sarcastic, and witty comparison. Perhaps I erred.
Mountains and Molehills
I for one think I understood immediately what sudo meant. I am surprised this went on so long and that sudo had to explain him/her self.
Ah.
Sudo, I put in a call and canceled the wood-chipper rental. You're off the hook.
And welcome here.
Well said.
Good on ya, Sudo.
Jim Downey
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Like Science Fiction? Read *or listen to* my novel, Communion of Dreams, for free.
Thank you.
And is there any way to delete double posts? :P
Done.
You have to register & sign in, then you can edit your own posts. One of the administrators can, as well (I just did).
Jim Downey
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Like Science Fiction? Read *or listen to* my novel, Communion of Dreams, for free.
Bill Maher is not an atheist
Not to be disagreeable, but I don't think we should consider Bill Maher an atheist activist. I say this because he's not an atheist. He's not even an agnostic. He didn't define himself, but from the views he's revealed I would consider him a deist. But you are right, he does a great job skewering religion. And he's got a movie coming out this summer called A Spiritual Journey directed by Larry Charles (Seinfeld, Mad About You, Curb Your Enthusiasm) about the absurdity of religion.
Bill Maher in an interview with Peter Sciretta:
“I’m not an atheist. There’s a really big difference between an atheist and someone who just doesn’t believe in religion. Religion to me is a bureaucracy between man and God that I don’t need. But I’m not an atheist, no.” I believe there’s some force. If you want to call it God… I don’t believe God is a single parent who writes books. I think that the people who think God wrote a book called The Bible are just childish. Religion is so childish. What they’re fighting about in the Middle East, it’s so childish. These myths, these silly little stories that they believe in fundamentally, that they take over this little space in Jerusalem where one guy flew up to heaven...no, no, this guy performed a sacrifice here a thousand million years ago. It’s like, “Who cares? What does that have to do with spirituality, where you’re really trying to get, as a human being and as a soul moving in the universe?” But I do believe in a God, yes.”
I didn't know he wasn't an atheist either until I read this interview. I've been watching his show for years and always thought he was, but this is actually even better. The fundies can't attack and easily dismiss him because he is really a theist, just like them. Ha! I love the smell of irony in the morning.
Disappointed
I know so many people who take the same position as Maher does in that quote. They're fed up with religion and they rail against all the inter-sectarian nonsense, but they still claim to believe in "something". Sorry, no good. It's no more rational to believe in "a God" in some vaguely spiritual way than it is to believe in the comic book Bible version of God with the white hair and long robes. They are epistemologically equivalent concepts. I thought Maher was a smart enough guy to realize that.
I'll settle for "the good".
That may be. But you know, I'd gladly settle for all the religious nuts to take Maher's position. The world would be *vastly* better off.
Jim Downey
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Like Science Fiction? Read *or listen to* my novel, Communion of Dreams, for free.
Really!
Thanks, Dirk - I stand corrected. I would not have known that, based on everything I've seen/heard from him over the years.
That kind of Deism is vague enough that I've never really quibbled with it - might as well just call it "nature" and be done with it.
Thanks again!
Jim Downey
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Like Science Fiction? Read *or listen to* my novel, Communion of Dreams, for free.
Big difference
This is vastly different from the flak Kathy Griffin took for her "Suck it, Jesus" comment. I like Kathy Griffin, and I certainly agree with her sentiment, but the comment crossed the line. (Just the "suck it" part; I was fine with the rest of it.)
In this case, though, it's hard to see why Bill Maher should apologize. Maybe it's wrong to criticize the Pope for an organization he belonged to as a child, and was probably coerced into joining, but he voluntarily became a leader in the Catholic Church. He wasn't the Pope during the majority of the crimes the Priests committed, but he was in at least middle management or higher.
Until Catholics like Bill Donohue get the church cleaned up, they have no room to complain about the criticisms they receive. Especially when those criticisms are true.
Rob Miles
--
There are only 10 types of people in the world;
those who understand binary and those who don't.
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