A Quick Question

There have been, and still are real-world examples of this thought process. Many thought we got rid of those who claimed obedience to the Teutonic gods, but they have been replaced by the followers of the lonely god of the desert.

I cannot even seriously frame your question in my head - for I do not follow a god who rules by only whim or defines morality by fiat.

"I believe in preaching to the converted; for I have generally found that the converted do not understand their own religion." -G.K. Chesterton

One of the things that drove me away from Christianity in the first place was the realization (from reading the Bible) that the god of the Christians was a terrible being and that there was no way I could worship something like that. So the answer to your question is no. If God told me torture was A-OK I still wouldn't think it was ethical.

I would have to ask it why. I am aware that nothing is ever black and white. My experiences have taught me that there are very few absolutes in this world. I usually try to direct my actions in a utilitarian manner. Since most actions have both positive and negative effects, I try to pick the option that harms the least. Our supposed deity would have to convince me that this torture was necessary for the greater good of humanity. I would need to see some substantial evidence that more people would benefit from the harm I am inflicting. I'm envisioning a controled double blind experiment where the independent veriable is amount of torture inflicted and the dependent variable is some measurable benefit for humanity in general. If r is very close to one and chi squared is less than .05, we may have a deal. Else I'm dead. [for a god, this experiment should be fairly easy to design I would think, cept for the double blind part, being omniscient and all] Course It could always fudge the data, and I'd never know. So I guess I'm dead either way as I wouldn't be able to agree with my own criteria. Hmmmmmmm
Sorry I wasted your time.

If you conflate Creator of The Universe™ with Giver Of All That Is Good™, if you treat this deity as the source of all law, knowledge, wisdom, goodness and justice, and those things can derive from no other source, well then, yes, logically, absolute obedience is the only logical attitude to take. Unless you view your own self as evil, I suppose.

However, it is not necessary to conflate those terms. One could believe in Creator deity, but one which is amoral or even evil as some Gnostic traditions do. The source of goodness/law/justice/goodness could be located elsewhere (for polytheits/gnostic that would be another deity); or it could come from man himself.

The point is, your question addresses a very specific monotheistic tradition, but as a hypothetical, all possible scenarios could be entertained.

I can easily imagine having a deity which you believe in yet hate. I even think this is fairly prevalent within those monotheistic traditions.

It's a bit hard to get one's head around, of course. The question is inapplicable from the perspective of an unbeliever, while the position and mental state of a believer who has just been relieved of the necessity for faith (since he's been given proof) is quite hard to envision. It's a whole different universe from where I live.

Since the definitive existence of your god, as well as his godhood, is assumed, the only resistance left would seem to be if the god in question was acting uncharacteristically. For the Abramic god, of course, the answer is "no."

I'd like to think that at this point, I would suggest that perhaps death was not necessary, or that if it was, then why not a quick death rather than complicated and harrowing torture? Surely cruelty is unnecessary and rather pointless, since my god is already set up to provide much more comprehensive and eternal torture after death.

Thus, it seems likely that the rationale behind such--and I would certainly require myself to rationalize--is that the act of torturing is intended for the believer performing the torture, and the object is irrelevant. As a devotee of this god, I must see whatever effect it is intended to have on me--be it the suppression of those ungodly empathic tendencies to the unworthy or as a test of loyalty--as intended for my or at least the god's benefit.

Being in a subordinate position, and hemmed in with presuppositions on the beneficience and truthfulness of my god, and knowing as an article of faith that his evil adversary wants me to fail to act loyally, well...

The whole point of top-down monotheism is to give up your capacity as an independent moral actor. (See also: Jingoistic Patriotism) This goal is in order to ensure that when asked to do something otherwise repugnant or against your interests, you will obey without making objections.

The Abraham story--and others--are specifically told in order to illustrate this principle. If god tells you to do something, even if it is patently stupid, counterproductive, vicious, or suicidal--you do it without sticking your petty mortal oar in.

Your opinions don't count. That's the point. Because YOU don't count. You are expendable. If you do precisely what you are told, you'll be given an 'attaboy' in the afterlife, but God didn't give you that meat shell to listen to you bitch. He gave it to you to follow orders with. A hammer doesn't point out the injustice of hitting the nail. Neither should you.

You're damned lucky he gave you this chance instead of tossing you straight into Hell. Shut up and be grateful. It's an HONOR.

Oh, and if you ever, ever bring this up again? Straight to Hell forever. The Book of Life is written in pencil, backslider. Even if it wasn't, he'd rip out the whole page just to get you. You don't want to condemn a whole page full of people do you? Because it would be your fault.

This is the base relationship between God and anyone-who-is-not-God from a monotheistic omni perspective.

You can't, therefore, not torture people to death. It doesn't help them; it doesn't help you. The moral arbiter of the universe is a homicidal psychopath, and you will, in actual fact, be tortured for all eternity for the slightest misstep. You can't save the others no matter what you do, only endanger yourself. And sacrificing yourself for them is pointless, of course, since you know that no possible benefit can come of it for anyone.

It would be like standing in front of a tsunami to protest the injustice of earthquakes. It isn't there for you to object to. Like God, it just doesn't care on any level you can access.

This, of course, is the inescapable conclusion that makes it necessary for people to assert that 'God is Love'. So that instead of hoping that God doesn't do something like this, they can assure themselves that He Wouldn't.

Despite the Biblical record indicating that He has. Repeatedly. Tell it to Sodom. Tell it to Noah. Tell it to the whole freaking Old Testament. Tell it to Jesus' fig tree. Tell it to that couple who only gave part of the money to the disciples.

I'm an atheist, and a good thing, too, because I understand that the existence of the Abramic god equals eternal slavery of one kind or another. So I'm glad it's all a lie.

Because I'd have to torture unbelievers to death if it wasn't. Befehl ist befehl, after all.

I could always tell myself they chose it for themselves.

Steve "Now I'm depressed." James

Both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible promote torture. Many people know the numerous examples in the Old, but few seem to be aware of Revelations verse 2.

Much is explained in Mr. Deity episode 1.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Qzf8q9QHfhI&feature=user

Being atheist, my standard answer is to tell the almighty to do it himself. He obviously doesn't need my help and I won't participate.

A while back though, I asked this same sort of question to some coworkers concerning Abraham and would you kill your children, etc., just for my own edification. I'm pleased to report of the approx. 6 christian people I asked, only one agreed it was moral to follow that order. I was well pleased but taken by surprise by one response.

Probably the most devout christian I asked actually said no because Jesus has already paid our debt and there are to be no more blood sacrifices so if a deity told him to do something horrible, he would know it was actually of the Devil (I was going to be insulting but don't know if Debil has one L or two).

This sounds something like the Nuremburg defense for religion. And it does seem to be used all sorts of places, and for centuries.

I suppose my first reaction would be, "define 'unbeliever.'" And give us standards of proof that are irrefutable and infallible, because we don't want to waste our time torturing the wrong people. After all, people have tried to figure out a certain test for centuries and there's nothing in the news to suggest that we are getting it right.

Or, being such an infallible sort of diety, as my theism teaches, aren't you supposed to handle it yourself?

{I'm also the kid who likes to explain to Christians exactly why they are doomed because they refuse to follow the the instructions in the Bible by being polytheists who bow to graven images. And if they really annoy me, I cite Matthew about false prophets. Gotta love being able to use their own ammunition against them.}

Although I see the point of the thought experiment, I think I'd have to know what deity we're talking about. Is it the one who is supposed to have actually created the universe? The one with colliding galaxies, billions of suns, and so forth? I think I'd find it hard to say anything at all if such a being actually existed and spoke to me directly (as opposed to hearing a voice in my head who said it was that deity.) Saying I would do this or that in face of such power seems to me to be empty posturing.

The bible has what I think is the model for your question as all 3 western religions have the story of Abraham being told to bind and then kill his son. It certainly was torture even though, Abraham even though the deed was not consummated.

What if we could torture fundamentalist christians? And specify a few, like Hagee, Dobson, Benny Hinn....

It always intrigues me how believers see morality/ethics. Is something moral because their sky daddy likes it or commands it? Or is it that right and wrong transcends even their deity? That even if this god of theirs weren't around or ceased to exist, what is now considered (un)ethical would still be so.

As for the thought experiment, the old testament already contains enough evil from and by Mr. Deity to quell any doubts that this character wouldn't think twice about ordering the torture of unbelievers. Heck, He personally killed innocent Egyptian children.

I've had a number of Christians ask me what it would take to make me believe in God, presumably the God of their Bible (because they can't even conceive of there being any other god). I'm sure all of you have had the same question asked, and I always answer that, if their God exists, it would certainly know what to do to convince me.

But I always follow up by saying that even if I were convinced to believe in that God, I wouldn't worship it. It could force me to obey, I suppose, but it still wouldn't be worthy of worship.

Obviously I wouldn't obey the command in the example, as long as I have a choice. Why would I want to spend eternity in the presence of that kind of being? I'd rather have oblivion, or hell, any day of the week (and twice on Sundays.)

It's more interesting to find out what Christians would do, though. The ones who say "My God would never command such a thing" are less scary, I guess (even though it shows they don't know their Bible very well), and most of the Christians I know personally would say that. The ones who would obey such a command already think they're supposed to, and willingly would, and are only held back by secular laws.

Rob Miles
--
There are only 10 types of people in the world;
those who understand binary and those who don't.

I'd tell that Deity to slurp on my penis.

But then, I have Authority Issues...

NO, you bastard! If you want me to do that, you're not worth believing in!

(But only after I asked "Do I get to choose who?" and he said "No.")

Oh, and for all you stodgy, humorless, oh-so-reasonable atheist-type folks - this is a thought experiment. Pretend you just got a personal text-message from Mr. Deity, and he's not fucking kidding. Torture unbelievers to death, or die for real.

This is your only shot at eternal life.

Go.